Comments Thread For: Daily Bread Mailbag: Hagler-Leonard, Gassiev, Ryan Garcia, More

[Oregonian]

I agree that Floyd be Maidana & Castillo definitively the 2nd time. No doubt there, but that doesn't change what happened in the 1st 2 fights.

Those guys are not ATG fighters and that's the difference between goodness & greatness. Duran was great enough to go up 2 weight classes & beat Sugar Ray Leonard the 2nd best WW of all-time. Floyd's not even top 5 welterweights of all-time.

Chavez at 135 was on a completely different level than Castillo. He had an alltime great chin & alltime great power.

And nobody brought up Manny Pacquiao here, so I don't know why you did.

Nobody other than devout Floyd haters & Filipinos believe Pac beat May.

Most people outside of May stans believe Castillo won the 1st fight. It's not controversial to most people. The crowd thought he lost the fight. The announcers thought he lost the fight. The HBO's scorekeeper thought he lost the fight. Most journalists had him losing the fight.

That's the difference

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Fair enough. I won’t be dismissive of your response. I’ll have to go back and read more on the Floyd-Castillo fight.

That said, rematches usually happen for two reasons; when there’s an outright robbery or controversial decision and when the fight was so exciting back and forth that demand for it just pushed the fight to happen. That’s when it gets sealed.
When Roy Jones fought Tarver the first time, a lot of people thought Roy lost. Had Roy beaten Tarver the 2nd time, what do you think woulda happened?
I don’t hear boxing fans running around claiming Roy lost the first time. Tarver put an end to that debate.

When Hopkins fought Pascal, a lot of people thought he was robbed. Myself included. In the rematch, Hopkins righted that wrong. I don’t hear anyone talking about Pascal the way they talk about Floyd.

Had Castillo beaten Floyd in the rematch, that would be the end of it but he didn’t.
What happened is Floyd morphed into a global superstar, standing on a platform that’s debating his GOAT and ATG status and that’s what makes those haters scream so loud.

To equate that to something similar, Oscar got beat by Felix Sturm. I know you agree with me and even Oscar was shocked he got the decision. The rematch never happened BUT nobody ever talks about Oscar getting a gift decision.

Floyd likes to brag that he’s the greatest ever and that’s the only reason Castillo keeps coming up. Had Floyd stayed humbled in wins and promotions, I am betting nobody would be debating the Castillo fight.

As for Duran going up 2 weight classes, well, Floyd moved up 5 weight classes.
Duran beat SRL when SRL was 25. In the rematch SRL was on the move the whole fight. I’ve seen SRL fight like Floyd against many fighters but he doesn’t get criticized at all. Why the hate towards Floyd?

If Floyd had stayed humble he would never have made the crazy money he’s made.

The Castillo debate or the BS about ducking certain fighters or even the PAC win or lateness is all because of Floyd’s mouth. Boxing purists acknowledge Floyd’s greatness

[The D3vil]

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As for Duran going up 2 weight classes, well, Floyd moved up 5 weight classes.
Duran beat SRL when SRL was 25. In the rematch SRL was on the move the whole fight. I’ve seen SRL fight like Floyd against many fighters but he doesn’t get criticized at all. Why the hate towards Floyd?

If Floyd had stayed humble he would never have made the crazy money he’s made.

The Castillo debate or the BS about ducking certain fighters or even the PAC win or lateness is all because of Floyd’s mouth. Boxing purists acknowledge Floyd’s greatness

Duran went up 2 weight classes & beat the 2nd greatest WW of all-time in his own weight class, while he was in his prime.

Floyd never beat a HOF fighter in their prime, much less somebody as great as SRL in his own weight class. That's a top 5 All-Time victory in boxing history.

And Duran went up 5 weight classes too and fought killers like Hearns at 154, Hagler at 160, Iran Barkley, usually always in their home countries.

He didn't get to cherry pick guys and fight them when it was convenient in his own back yard.

[Oregonian]

Duran went up 2 weight classes & beat the 2nd greatest WW of all-time in his own weight class, while he was in his prime.

Floyd never beat a HOF fighter in their prime, much less somebody as great as SRL in his own weight class. That's a top 5 All-Time victory in boxing history.

And Duran went up 5 weight classes too and fought killers like Hearns at 154, Hagler at 160, Iran Barkley, usually always in their home countries.

He didn't get to cherry pick guys and fight them when it was convenient in his own back yard.

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Should Floyd be creating HOF fighters? Floyd’s era unfortunately isn’t loaded with the kind of talent in different eras. That’s not Floyd’s fault.

Also this BS about Floyd not beating guys in their prime is just laughable.
Floyd beat Castillo and Corales at 135. They were both in their prime and are both HOF.

He moved up to 140 and destroyed Gatti, another HOF.

He moved up to 147 in 2006. Zab is going to the HOF, was a belt holder then. Floyd was not a PPV Star and those belts were leverage as he was going after Oscar.
Oscar is a HOF and was 34 when he fought Floyd who was 30. It was a competitive fight. When Oscar was in his “prime” Floyd was fighting at 130 so what did you want? An unknown Floyd to move up 3 weight classes to fight Oscar? Same deal with Mosley.

Why didn’t PAC move up to 140 in 2005 to fight Floyd? Or 2006 or 2007? Why did he wait for Floyd to get old and when Floydcwasnt in his “prime”? Do you hear how retärded that sounds?

Duran was not American. He had no choice but to come to the US. The US is the Mecca if boxing.
Unless you wanted Floyd to travel to Wakanda to fight T’Challa? Name a country or a backyard Floyd was supposed to travel to!

[The D3vil]

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Should Floyd be creating HOF fighters? Floyd’s era unfortunately isn’t loaded with the kind of talent in different eras. That’s not Floyd’s fault.

Also this BS about Floyd not beating guys in their prime is just laughable.
Floyd beat Castillo and Corales at 135. They were both in their prime and are both HOF.

He moved up to 140 and destroyed Gatti, another HOF.

He moved up to 147 in 2006. Zab is going to the HOF, was a belt holder then. Floyd was not a PPV Star and those belts were leverage as he was going after Oscar.
Oscar is a HOF and was 34 when he fought Floyd who was 30. It was a competitive fight. When Oscar was in his “prime” Floyd was fighting at 130 so what did you want? An unknown Floyd to move up 3 weight classes to fight Oscar? Same deal with Mosley.

Why didn’t PAC move up to 140 in 2005 to fight Floyd? Or 2006 or 2007? Why did he wait for Floyd to get old and when Floydcwasnt in his “prime”? Do you hear how retärded that sounds?

Duran was not American. He had no choice but to come to the US. The US is the Mecca if boxing.
Unless you wanted Floyd to travel to Wakanda to fight T’Challa? Name a country or a backyard Floyd was supposed to travel to!

Jose Luis Castillo & Diego Corrales definitely weren't in the International Boxing Hall of Fame last time I checked.

And yeah, he got his ass whooped by Castillo, got a gift in the first fight, then won the 2nd.

Corrales was a good fighter & that is definitely his best win.

Arturo Gatti was not in his prime at 140lbs.

He was at his best at 130.

Oscar De La Hoya definitely wasn't in his prime in 2007.

And yeah, Manny didn't fight Floyd when Floyd was in his prime, but he did fight and beat Marquez, Barrera, Erik Morales, & Miguel Cotto

And they definitely are either in the Hall of Fame or are going to the Hall of fame and were in their primes or close to their primes when they fought.

And there's plenty of countries that Floyd could've fought in

He could've fought in the UK, Mexico, Germany, Japan, Australia, and other countries that guys like Muhammad Ali, Manny Pacquiao, Hagler, and most other great champions fought in.

[ShoulderRoll]

Jose Luis Castillo & Diego Corrales definitely weren't in the International Boxing Hall of Fame last time I checked.

And yeah, he got his ass whooped by Castillo, got a gift in the first fight, then won the 2nd.

Corrales was a good fighter & that is definitely his best win.

Arturo Gatti was not in his prime at 140lbs.

He was at his best at 130.

Oscar De La Hoya definitely wasn't in his prime in 2007.

And yeah, Manny didn't fight Floyd when Floyd was in his prime, but he did fight and beat Marquez, Barrera, Erik Morales, & Miguel Cotto

And they definitely are either in the Hall of Fame or are going to the Hall of fame and were in their primes or close to their primes when they fought.

And there's plenty of countries that Floyd could've fought in

He could've fought in the UK, Mexico, Germany, Japan, Australia, and other countries that guys like Muhammad Ali, Manny Pacquiao, Hagler, and most other great champions fought in.

Erik Morales wasn't in his prime when Pacquiao beat him.

He had already lost to Zahir Raheem by that point, for example.

And Pacquiao didn't go after Raheem because Roach knew that style was all wrong for Manny. Same reason they avoided Shane Mosley.

[Oregonian]

Jose Luis Castillo & Diego Corrales definitely weren't in the International Boxing Hall of Fame last time I checked.

And yeah, he got his ass whooped by Castillo, got a gift in the first fight, then won the 2nd. Corrales was a good fighter & that is definitely his best win.

Arturo Gatti was not in his prime at 140lbs. He was at his best at 130.

Oscar De La Hoya definitely wasn't in his prime in 2007.

And yeah, Manny didn't fight Floyd when Floyd was in his prime, but he did fight and beat Marquez, Barrera, Erik Morales, & Miguel Cotto

And they definitely are either in the Hall of Fame or are going to the Hall of fame and were in their primes or close to their primes when they fought.

And there's plenty of countries that Floyd could've fought in

He could've fought in the UK, Mexico, Germany, Japan, Australia, and other countries that guys like Muhammad Ali, Manny Pacquiao, Hagler, and most other great champions fought in.

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You clearly don’t know jack shït about boxing. When did you want Floyd to fight Oscar? Floyd was a 130 Ibs fighter when Oscar was fighting at WW in 2000. Do you not get that?

So Gatti would have beaten Floyd at 130 us what you’re alluding to? Jeez!
Manny got beat by Morales. Got beat by Marquez 4 times and openly DUCKED Zahir Raheem. Cotto was weight drained and had been beaten and stopped by Margarito so which prime are you talking about?

So which fighters could Floyd have fought in those countries you just listed?
Do you even know why Ali fought overseas?

[BoxingTrav]

I agree that Floyd be Maidana & Castillo definitively the 2nd time. No doubt there, but that doesn't change what happened in the 1st 2 fights.

Those guys are not ATG fighters and that's the difference between goodness & greatness. Duran was great enough to go up 2 weight classes & beat Sugar Ray Leonard the 2nd best WW of all-time. Floyd's not even top 5 welterweights of all-time.

Chavez at 135 was on a completely different level than Castillo. He had an alltime great chin & alltime great power.

And nobody brought up Manny Pacquiao here, so I don't know why you did.

Nobody other than devout Floyd haters & Filipinos believe Pac beat May.

Most people outside of May stans believe Castillo won the 1st fight. It's not controversial to most people. The crowd thought he lost the fight. The announcers thought he lost the fight. The HBO's scorekeeper thought he lost the fight. Most journalists had him losing the fight.

That's the difference

Are we gonna ignore the tough fights that Chavez had with Meldrick Taylor, Sweet Pea and Frankie Randle? Now tell me who fights in that style?

[The D3vil]

Erik Morales wasn't in his prime when Pacquiao beat him.

He had already lost to Zahir Raheem by that point, for example.

And Pacquiao didn't go after Raheem because Roach knew that style was all wrong for Manny. Same reason they avoided Shane Mosley.

That's false. Morales lost to Raheem AFTER he lost to Pacquiao

He was 47-2, only losing to the HOF Barerra at the point he had lost to Pacquaio

Now, he wasn't at his peak, I agree, but peak & prime are different things, as Bread talks about regularly.

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You clearly don’t know jack shït about boxing. When did you want Floyd to fight Oscar? Floyd was a 130 Ibs fighter when Oscar was fighting at WW in 2000. Do you not get that?

So Gatti would have beaten Floyd at 130 us what you’re alluding to? Jeez!
Manny got beat by Morales. Got beat by Marquez 4 times and openly DUCKED Zahir Raheem. Cotto was weight drained and had been beaten and stopped by Margarito so which prime are you talking about?

So which fighters could Floyd have fought in those countries you just listed?
Do you even know why Ali fought overseas?

I never said I wanted Floyd to fight Oscar before 2007. Just that you can't say that it's a prime win over Oscar, because it's not.

He didn't beat in HOFs in their primes like other ATGs have. IS that all his fault? Maybe, maybe not. It's just a fact and has to be used as a criteria to judge his career.

Ali fought out of America BEFORE and AFTER his Vietnam exile.

He fought Chuvalo, London, and Mildenberger in their countries in the '60s.

He fought in Switzerland, Japan, Ireland, Zaire, Puerto Rico, and Germany when he came back.

He viewed himself as a boxing ambassador, that's why he fought all over the world.

You act like guys can only fight in the countries that they're from.

Mike Tyson fought Buster Douglas in Japan, and last time I checked, neither are Japanese.

There would've been nothing stopping Floyd from fighting Ricky Hatton in Wimbley or MEN.

He could've fought Cotto in Puerto Rico.

He could've fought Manny in the Phillippines if he wanted.

Or, he could've fought in South Africa or Canada or France anytime he wanted. HE wouldn't have needed guys from those countries to do that as the world's biggest Pay-Per-View draw.

I'm not saying he had to do that, but it's not like it was beyond the realm of his control.

Let's be real, he only fought in Las Vegas because he knew he would have complete control of the event and would get favorable treatment in every fight.

It's why Canelo loves fighting in Las Vegas too.

GGG, Cotto, Jacobs, Kovalev all had to fight him there.

And everyone knows that Canelo has a "home field" advantage in Las Vegas

Are we gonna ignore the tough fights that Chavez had with Meldrick Taylor, Sweet Pea and Frankie Randle? Now tell me who fights in that style?

Oh, I agree he wouldn't have run over Floyd at all.

These are two ATGs at 130, who would've had a great fight that either guy would've had a chance to win.

Chavez had problems with movers and Floyd had problems with guys who could get physical with him.

But let's not do the Floyd stan thing where we pretend that nobody in the history of boxing could ever touch him, which is what I was responding to.

He might've beach Chavez by decision or Chavez may have beat him up

[Shadoww702]

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Castillo and Maidana both got rematched. Why couldn’t they replicate the same “blue print” and beat Floyd the 2nd time?

Also, the “whole world”? Which world are you talking about?
Every single Filipino I have met in person or online believes that Manny beat Floyd. Manny is their world and I get the idol worshipping and I just laugh it off, what is this “whole world” you are talking about?

Marquez beat PAC three times before the KO. It’s arguable. It’s debatable. I’m not going to say the whole world.

Some fights like Oscar vs Sturm or Malignaggi vs Juan Diaz or Hatton vs Collazo amongst others can be viewed under “the whole world” prism but a lot of people had no problems with Floyd getting the nod.
I’ve watched that fight several times just so I can stand on a platform on whether to make this argument or not.

Maidana didn't even have a chance in the 2nd fight with Floyd Bayless Jr. as the ref. Maidana couldn't even throw a punch without getting warned.and points deducted. Round 8 was fkn weird??? And 9 point deduction was BS!

How do you bite through a glove with a mouthpiece???

[ShoulderRoll]

That's false. Morales lost to Raheem AFTER he lost to Pacquiao

Nope.

Morales beat Pacquiao, then lost to Raheem, then lost twice to Pacquiao. Check Boxrec.

The fact is El Terrible was not in his prime OR at his peak when Pacquiao beat him. And Pacquiao never went after Raheem either after he beat Morales.