Thoughts on Sweet Pea vs GGG

[NORMNEALON]

I just have to be honest Norm...I don't really see the distinction between a group of wins over guys like Jacobs, Murray, Lemieux, Derevy, Monroe, Geale on GGG's resume...and guys like Haugen, ROGER (not Floyd or Sr Mayweather, Pendlteon, and then Ramirez, and then Nelson and McGirt...like I just don't see how there is a ton of separation there man.

And to your point...that doesn't really get into the 'robberies' GGG had vs Canelo...in any event, thanks for the reply.

Was more hoping to have a thread more focused on the 2 'robberies' each suffered to Mexican stars, and kind of share some thoughts on that...but I did compare them and their resumes overall as well, so can't be upset that people wanted to highlight that part and respond to it.

They both had some robberies 110% cant disagree there but everyone I listed was a world champion before or after pea fought them . For ggg wins not so much pretty much break down said opponents resumes and tell me who u really think accomplished more . Like really break them down . Pea fought and beat the better opposition . Is it close yes ??but even if we break down robberies ggg was robbed once vs canelo IMHO . Pea was robbed vs Chavez who is arguably one of the best fighters of all time , and hoya who is right up there . Canelo is a great fighter too but not on those twos level . It's closer than most think but it still isnt close IMO . I think a more appropriate thread title would be that gg and peas resumes are much closer than people give ggg credit for .

[NORMNEALON]

Okay so quick breakdown of the opponents I listed ( pea ) to the ones u did ( ggg) which u said there want much differnce between. Now this is in good fun and respect but I have to break this down for you. I only included notable wins being former current or future champs . And imo the amount of loses a fighter has means nothing. Only means squat in this day and age and not to true fight fans ( not saying u aren't a true fight fan btw).

So peas best wins ( and the people said opponents beat (notable only )).

Mayweather 2 division champion - bramble , paz , serrano .

Haugen- 2 division champ , 2 time lightweight champ - Mancini, camacho , paz , paul.

Pendleton lightweight champion - Paez , bramble , mayweather , lopez .

Ramirez 2 time lightweight champion - pea , boza edwards , rosario .

Azhuma nelson 4 time super featherweight champion , featherweight champion - leija , ruelas , Fenech , laporte , Gomez.

Mcgirt 2 weight world champion - oliva , brown .


Now for GGG :

Daniel Jacobs middleweight champion - Chavez jr, deve , quillin.

Sergei Deve never won a belt - Sam soliman

Martin murray never won a belt - 0 notable wins .

Monroe jr never won a belt - 0 notable wins .

Geale former middleweight champion ( unified ) - mundine , karmazin.

David lemeuix middleweight champion - 0 notable wins

Kell brook welterweight champion - shawn porter .

Kassim ouma jr middleweight champion -verno Phillip's


I added two guys to GGG list because they were notable wins for him aswell.and could.have added one or two to peas but left them out . I think the proof is in the pudding . Their resumes arent comparable and this is just going off notable wins being former or current world.champions . I dont acknowledge regular wba titles , IBO, or interim titles . Again I see what you are saying their resumes are alot.closer than people think however pea has the better resume hands down . And I can dig deeper . But cheers for the thread I enjoyed breaking this down .

I personally wouldnt have listed Murray or monroe as best wins for ggg altho murray is highly underrated .

[Boxing_1013]

They both had some robberies 110% cant disagree there but everyone I listed was a world champion before or after pea fought them . For ggg wins not so much pretty much break down said opponents resumes and tell me who u really think accomplished more . Like really break them down . Pea fought and beat the better opposition . Is it close yes ??but even if we break down robberies ggg was robbed once vs canelo IMHO . Pea was robbed vs Chavez who is arguably one of the best fighters of all time , and hoya who is right up there . Canelo is a great fighter too but not on those twos level . It's closer than most think but it still isnt close IMO . I think a more appropriate thread title would be that gg and peas resumes are much closer than people give ggg credit for .

Okay so quick breakdown of the opponents I listed ( pea ) to the ones u did ( ggg) which u said there want much differnce between. Now this is in good fun and respect but I have to break this down for you. I only included notable wins being former current or future champs . And imo the amount of loses a fighter has means nothing. Only means squat in this day and age and not to true fight fans ( not saying u aren't a true fight fan btw).

So peas best wins ( and the people said opponents beat (notable only )).

Mayweather 2 division champion - bramble , paz , serrano .

Haugen- 2 division champ , 2 time lightweight champ - Mancini, camacho , paz , paul.

Pendleton lightweight champion - Paez , bramble , mayweather , lopez .

Ramirez 2 time lightweight champion - pea , boza edwards , rosario .

Azhuma nelson 4 time super featherweight champion , featherweight champion - leija , ruelas , Fenech , laporte , Gomez.

Mcgirt 2 weight world champion - oliva , brown .


Now for GGG :

Daniel Jacobs middleweight champion - Chavez jr, deve , quillin.

Sergei Deve never won a belt - Sam soliman

Martin murray never won a belt - 0 notable wins .

Monroe jr never won a belt - 0 notable wins .

Geale former middleweight champion ( unified ) - mundine , karmazin.

David lemeuix middleweight champion - 0 notable wins

Kell brook welterweight champion - shawn porter .

Kassim ouma jr middleweight champion -verno Phillip's


I added two guys to GGG list because they were notable wins for him aswell.and could.have added one or two to peas but left them out . I think the proof is in the pudding . Their resumes arent comparable and this is just going off notable wins being former or current world.champions . I dont acknowledge regular wba titles , IBO, or interim titles . Again I see what you are saying their resumes are alot.closer than people think however pea has the better resume hands down . And I can dig deeper . But cheers for the thread I enjoyed breaking this down .

I personally wouldnt have listed Murray or monroe as best wins for ggg altho murray is highly underrated .

Thanks for the detailed replies Norm...in truth, again I really made the thread because I remembered that PW and GGG had identical results vs the two A-side Mexican star fights they fought in their careers...and many think they deserved 2 wins, instead of a draw and a loss.

Again I did compare their resumes in that initial post as well, but more so as filler to further the comparison between the 2 and get some convo going...and yes I did kind of have a cheeky little line at the end of my first post as well...so I can't be mad if people focus purely on the resume comparison I made between the 2.

Exactly how you view each guy will depend on how you saw them fare in certain fights...and then also on how exactly you rate those 2nd tier-and lower wins they had...I would put Canelo vying for the spot of top Mexican fighter ever, personally, right there with JCC Sr...and I would probably have ODLH above Sanchez, but only due to Sanchez's rather short career....but I would have Canelo above ODLH.

I appreciate your breakdown of the fighters and who they beat...my comment would just be that I look at it this way - I feel there are generally 3, maybe 4, tiers of pro boxers (A B C and then D or lower) - your 'A' level, or close to it - Canelo, GGG, Spence, Crawford, Floyd, Pac, Fury etc all fit in here.

You have some tweeners in this level too...I always take into account the level of the fighter at the time of fight as well...a great win over a good pro in their prime, will have as much weight or more for me than a UD over a shot, former great, fighting above their best weight...those are generally B level wins for me.

Guys for GGG such as Jacobs, Murray (at the time of the fight - having just fought very well vs Sergio in Argentina), SD, Brook, Lemieux, Monroe, and Geale are probably all at that B-level and above, with some arguably around a low A level.

Then GGG has a lot of wins against other solid pros, who are somewhere between B and C level imho...Macklin, Vanes (at the time of fight - would have been a time when he was a solid B to B+), Rubio, Adama, Stevens, Ishida, Proksa, Rosado, Ouma (at the time of fight - there was a time where he would have been at least a solid B or maybe even a bit higher).

When I factor in how dominant GGG was in most of those wins...it just really impresses me, and I think stacks up well with my analysis of other past greats and what they did with their resumes.

I understand that some could view it differently...they can focus on wins over former belt holders, or moving up in weight etc...but for me I think some of that stuff is just fluff...I really try to take into account who, and what version of that guy, you beat...I try not to overrate wins based on name or hype etc, or if a guy 'cherry picks' a weak belt holder...I try to be fair and consistent with what I think a guy's level is going in.

If some people honestly say they feel that PW has a bunch of wins over B level guys...and that they would rate a lot G's wins as C level...well if that's how they truly see it and they have their reasoning behind it, that's cool...I personally think they have a similar number of B level wins, and a similar number of C level wins...and even A level wins.

As an aside - to look at it another way - let's talk Nelson, who is probably PW's best official win...Nelson's best win on paper is pretty clearly Gomez, no? He stopped Gomez in 11 round in PR, pretty good win...Gomez was on a 9 fight win streak, mostly by KOs...but only one of those wins was at the weight where he fought Nelson, and he won that by UD not KO.

In his next 2 fights after Nelson, Gomez took a shady MD over Lockridge who was a good fighter...and then got stopped by Alfredo Layne...who lost his next 6 fights after his fight with Gomez...to be fair, Gomez's fight with Layne was at yet another higher weight class as well..but again that signals to me that Gomez was at the end of his run there, and letting himself go a bit.

Lol so all that to say...that yeah I just try and evaluate everything fairly for all guys man...just try to call it like I see it, and I try and take in and analyze as much info as possible.

In any event, thanks again for the chat and detailed breakdowns on your POV, much appreciated.

[NORMNEALON]

Thanks for the detailed replies Norm...in truth, again I really made the thread because I remembered that PW and GGG had identical results vs the two A-side Mexican star fights they fought in their careers...and many think they deserved 2 wins, instead of a draw and a loss.

Again I did compare their resumes in that initial post as well, but more so as filler to further the comparison between the 2 and get some convo going...and yes I did kind of have a cheeky little line at the end of my first post as well...so I can't be mad if people focus purely on the resume comparison I made between the 2.

Exactly how you view each guy will depend on how you saw them fare in certain fights...and then also on how exactly you rate those 2nd tier-and lower wins they had...I would put Canelo vying for the spot of top Mexican fighter ever, personally, right there with JCC Sr...and I would probably have ODLH above Sanchez, but only due to Sanchez's rather short career....but I would have Canelo above ODLH.

I appreciate your breakdown of the fighters and who they beat...my comment would just be that I look at it this way - I feel there are generally 3, maybe 4, tiers of pro boxers (A B C and then D or lower) - your 'A' level, or close to it - Canelo, GGG, Spence, Crawford, Floyd, Pac, Fury etc all fit in here.

You have some tweeners in this level too...I always take into account the level of the fighter at the time of fight as well...a great win over a good pro in their prime, will have as much weight or more for me than a UD over a shot, former great, fighting above their best weight...those are generally B level wins for me.

Guys for GGG such as Jacobs, Murray (at the time of the fight - having just fought very well vs Sergio in Argentina), SD, Brook, Lemieux, Monroe, and Geale are probably all at that B-level and above, with some arguably around a low A level.

Then GGG has a lot of wins against other solid pros, who are somewhere between B and C level imho...Macklin, Vanes (at the time of fight - would have been a time when he was a solid B to B+), Rubio, Adama, Stevens, Ishida, Proksa, Rosado, Ouma (at the time of fight - there was a time where he would have been at least a solid B or maybe even a bit higher).

When I factor in how dominant GGG was in most of those wins...it just really impresses me, and I think stacks up well with my analysis of other past greats and what they did with their resumes.

I understand that some could view it differently...they can focus on wins over former belt holders, or moving up in weight etc...but for me I think some of that stuff is just fluff...I really try to take into account who, and what version of that guy, you beat...I try not to overrate wins based on name or hype etc, or if a guy 'cherry picks' a weak belt holder...I try to be fair and consistent with what I think a guy's level is going in.

If some people honestly say they feel that PW has a bunch of wins over B level guys...and that they would rate a lot G's wins as C level...well if that's how they truly see it and they have their reasoning behind it, that's cool...I personally think they have a similar number of B level wins, and a similar number of C level wins...and even A level wins.

As an aside - to look at it another way - let's talk Nelson, who is probably PW's best official win...Nelson's best win on paper is pretty clearly Gomez, no? He stopped Gomez in 11 round in PR, pretty good win...Gomez was on a 9 fight win streak, mostly by KOs...but only one of those wins was at the weight where he fought Nelson, and he won that by UD not KO.

In his next 2 fights after Nelson, Gomez took a shady MD over Lockridge who was a good fighter...and then got stopped by Alfredo Layne...who lost his next 6 fights after his fight with Gomez...to be fair, Gomez's fight with Layne was at yet another higher weight class as well..but again that signals to me that Gomez was at the end of his run there, and letting himself go a bit.

Lol so all that to say...that yeah I just try and evaluate everything fairly for all guys man...just try to call it like I see it, and I try and take in and analyze as much info as possible.

In any event, thanks again for the chat and detailed breakdowns on your POV, much appreciated.

Great post!! I feel what u are saying for sure but I just simply broke it down into top level wins based off accomplishment so I wasnt up all night . We can choose to go thru any fighters resume with a fine tooth comb and try and find things to up their status or cut it down and have reasonable argument in both,however I like to keep it a little more basic for the sake of my time and work haha or else I would love to do that .we also have to take into account era they fought in , pea fought in the 90s for the most part is seen as the best lightweight of that decade by most . Unfortunatly ggg was in a pretty weak MW era and that's not his fault , but that being said I can confidently say that he still had a few misses . And his title defence streak is slightly tainted by people claiming his regular or interim wba title he held for a while was the real thing . Iam not at all trying to discredit ggg in my opinion he is a first ballot hall of Famer and seems to get either shat on or overrated unfortunately so it makes it hard to have reasonable debates on him and his legacy . I think he is liekly an atg middle especially based off the head to head section but he is definately lacking in resume imo especially in comparison to pea . Maybe iam bias becuase I grew up watching pea with my dad from a young age . But I try and call it like I see it always . Ggg didnt beat one hof officially . And altho I scored the first canelo fight for him he didnt get that win on paper ( just like pea vs Chavez and hoya ) so that is what stood out to me when comparing these two resumes . I could go on for days about ggg won canelo 1 and pea clearly won vs chavez but what I got from the thread was that we are comparing resumes . At first by the title I thought head to head and I was ready to come in guns blazing but then I seen u posted it and read it thoroughly ( apparently not thoroughly enuff tho Haha) as we have always had good debates and u seem to be quite fair . Altho we dont always see eye to eye . Respect !!! Thanks for the good debate my man raely get these since fury wilder ,people are just clowning lately and dont wanna respond to my level headed opinion haha

[Boxing_1013]

Great post!! I feel what u are saying for sure but I just simply broke it down into top level wins based off accomplishment so I wasnt up all night . We can choose to go thru any fighters resume with a fine tooth comb and try and find things to up their status or cut it down and have reasonable argument in both,however I like to keep it a little more basic for the sake of my time and work haha or else I would love to do that .we also have to take into account era they fought in , pea fought in the 90s for the most part is seen as the best lightweight of that decade by most . Unfortunatly ggg was in a pretty weak MW era and that's not his fault , but that being said I can confidently say that he still had a few misses . And his title defence streak is slightly tainted by people claiming his regular or interim wba title he held for a while was the real thing . Iam not at all trying to discredit ggg in my opinion he is a first ballot hall of Famer and seems to get either shat on or overrated unfortunately so it makes it hard to have reasonable debates on him and his legacy . I think he is liekly an atg middle especially based off the head to head section but he is definately lacking in resume imo especially in comparison to pea . Maybe iam bias becuase I grew up watching pea with my dad from a young age . But I try and call it like I see it always . Ggg didnt beat one hof officially . And altho I scored the first canelo fight for him he didnt get that win on paper ( just like pea vs Chavez and hoya ) so that is what stood out to me when comparing these two resumes . I could go on for days about ggg won canelo 1 and pea clearly won vs chavez but what I got from the thread was that we are comparing resumes . At first by the title I thought head to head and I was ready to come in guns blazing but then I seen u posted it and read it thoroughly ( apparently not thoroughly enuff tho Haha) as we have always had good debates and u seem to be quite fair . Altho we dont always see eye to eye . Respect !!! Thanks for the good debate my man raely get these since fury wilder ,people are just clowning lately and dont wanna respond to my level headed opinion haha

Thanks man, much appreciated...great post from you as well - I definitely see where you are coming from there, and think you are coming at it from an objective, neutral place...glad there are some here who still really want to have a boxing discussion and aren't so fanatical about stuff...you are definitely one of the good ones on here from what I've seen.

Yes I really hated the aftermath of Fury-Wilder 2...it was a great performance by Fury, and that should have been the talking point imo...instead we got 1) Fury fans coming out of the woodwork, proclaiming him to be the best ever (and to be fair I feel he does have 2 great wins on his resume that stack up well vs most HWs all-time) - but also most of those guys saying Wilder was a bum and he ******...like wtf lol...how does that make sense...Wilder is clearly his 2nd best win ever, you could even argue it was his best win.

2) Then we also got a lot of AJ fans coming out of the woodwork...saying this proves AJ is better....and then also crazily - imo - saying that this proves Whyte is better lol...like wtf...I mean who knows what would happen in a fight...but no other HW can really do what Fury did imo, not that effectively.

3) and then in response to the loss...a lot of Wilder fans making some rather strange arguments/accusations themselves as to why he lost.

Thankfully it seems like that has died down some now!! On that note, I really hope we get to see Wilder vs Whyte and AJ now...I think those would be big fights and I love a good redemption story, and would be happy to see Wilder get a KO or two there in those fights!! But I think they would be exciting and sell well/be good events at the least.

[RJJ-94-02=GOAT]

You take 'wanting to get the last word' to a whole new level

You keep replying...

Clown...

[john l]

Got ya thanks John...I have Chavez, Nelson, ODLH and Tito...am I missing any others?

McGirt(twice), and a few more who may make it at some point.

[Boxing_1013]

You keep replying...

Clown...

Man I almost forgot how embarrassing you were in this thread