Is the Philly Shell defense Unorthodox?

[NORMNEALON]

For me top guys in no order off the top off my head :

Nicholino locche ( arguably top 3 best defensive fighters of all time ).

George Benton- not the goat by any means but he was using the shell back in the 40s . And he never got a title shot . The mayor of Philadelphia himself haha . Very very good fighter .

Jersey joe Walcott. Arguably a top 10 heavy all time . Overlooked by some as time goes by, but a GREAT fighter.

Old george foreman . Archie taught him this technique but he really started using it in his second career . Which was the greatest comeback of all time I feel like foreman's could be refered to as a cross arm variation . And although foreman in his second career ate alot of punches so iam not sure what it did for him ( but he never quit on his stool like roger Mayweather In the Chavez rematch ).

We can get really old school with Tommy ryan . He fought in the 1800s and used a crouching style shell defense . He was welterweight and middleweight world champ .

Archie moore . Need I say more ?? Arguably greatest light heavyweight of all time .

Joe frazier . One of the best left hooks of all time . One of the most popular practitioners of said defensive stance due to his win over ali .

James toney . One hell of a fighter . Anyone with boxing eyes watches toney and is impressed . What roy jones did to him was next level

Floyd mayweather . He didnt stay in the pocket as much as the other guys but floyd was also arguably the best defensive fighter of all time . He switched up orthodox stance with his shell / shoulder roll .

Ken Norton- not an all time great in any regard but he did beat ali once and gave him hell twice. Altho simular stance as frazier . He was a completely differnt fighter . Ken Norton was very underrated . His chin always seemed to fail when it mattered except vs ali .

The p4P king SRR . like mayweather he didnt always stay in the pocket, but he still applied the same technique . Even tho they both also switched with an orthodox stance.

The thing I love about this technique is rarely did u see two fighters do it the same . So many great fighters and coaches put their twist on it .

Eddie Futch was big on this and they actually called it the Michigan style defence. I've also heard variations of it called : crab shell defense, shoulder roll , cross arm defence are the main names for this style that come to mind . Good post , this is fun .

[NORMNEALON]

^^^^

Frazier had no right hand, which is what Cooper caught Holyfield with. Similar defense between those two but Evander was better equipped to parry left hooks and counter with body shots. That makes it a tough night for Joe.

I feel you . I think joe is over rated by alot of fans and historians imho . Largely due to his huge reliance on the left hook. But I still rank him.highly especially in a shell defence topic . But I see holyfield as being a winnable match up for him . Holy was his size they both had solid chins for the most part ( holy edges it chin wise imo). I think holy wins this fight but I think joe would give him hell and take his soul in this fight . As for cooper he caught holy all night with that right hand , and the reason he couldnt develope the left hook as much ( altho he caught holy with plenty of left hooks and right uppercuts too ) is becusse bert kept his left elbow so high , it was too hard to execute. His right hand and high shell guard is why he lost that fight . Holys left to the body straight up won him the fight . It broke cooper down . Joe frazier had a sneaky chopping right hand that set up alot of his huge left hook kos . His right uppercut was next level too . He buttered up Manuel Ramos with his right hand and uppercut to set up the giant left hook stoppage , same with buster mathis. It wasnt his money punch but it set up alot for frazier as well as the right uppercut . His best kos were with the left hand obviously but his right hand set up so many great kos it isnt funny . To say joe didnt have a right hand is not fair especially in comparison to bert cooper . Joe's left hook just shadowed the great work his right hand did ( like alis shadow took away from Joe's appreciation after the second fight and especially the rumble in the jungle ) with eye catching savage kos

[TheMyspaceDayz]

^^^^

Yeah, I wasn’t saying Holyfield walks through Frazier. I thought you were saying Joe walks through Evander. To me that is one of the best dream matchups I can think of.

If a relatively inexperienced Holy can beat a two handed Qawi though then a prime Holy can beat a one armed Frazier by late TKO.

[W1LL]

A lot of people going off on tangents in here.

The Philly shell is unorthodox yes. A fighter needs certain attributes to be able to pull it off. Balance, footwork, reflexes, timing.

[NORMNEALON]

Yeah, I've noticed that when Loma does slap the gloves away, the opponent is usually against the ropes with the ear muffs on.

I thought Archie Moore came up with it. Very cool. I can understand that. What's a technique that you consider unorthodox?

Archie moore was just one of the first great fighters to use it . In the 30s 40s slot of fighters fought this way and as you'll read in my other post Tommy ryan was a two weight world champion who used a simular style in the late 1800s . With the actual name "philly shell "george benton was generally credited with creating that although it was just another name for his version of the crab shell ( as it was refered to alot with moore and frazier ) the cross arm ( old foreman , lochhe ) shoulder roll ( floyd Mayweather) . But alot of this is essentially differnt fighters play on a style of stance / defense . I break it down more in my list of top shell fighters . A few very good fighters too .

[TheMyspaceDayz]

^^^^

I read your post and I know Moore didn’t birth the style that eventually evolved into the Philly shell. I used Moore as an example because there is tons of footage of him in comparison to the others. Everyone cares about what they can see these days.

And Will is right. You got away from the point and pulled me with you. He needs to look up the meaning of “orthodox” though.

[NORMNEALON]

^^^^

Yeah, I wasn’t saying Holyfield walks through Frazier. I thought you were saying Joe walks through Evander. To me that is one of the best dream matchups I can think of.

If a relatively inexperienced Holy can beat a two handed Qawi though then a prime Holy can beat a one armed Frazier by late TKO.

I feelmyour analogy but the buzzsaw didnt have the power joe had and again Frazier's right hand / uppercut set up some his best kos in his whole career . So I can't call him one handed or hand dominant forsure tho . Quawi vs frazier would be a great mythical matchup but i cant compare frazier and quawi altho they are simular frazier was a natural heavy and dwight wasnt . And quawi was relentless with great headmovement he didnt shell up all the time, that's why I didnt include him on my list but the way he applied pressure and head movement could certainly be very Frazier esque sometimes .

[NORMNEALON]

^^^^

I read your post and I know Moore didn’t birth the style that eventually evolved into the Philly shell. I used Moore as an example because there is tons of footage of him in comparison to the others. Everyone cares about what they can see these days.

And Will is right. You got away from the point and pulled me with you. He needs to look up the meaning of “orthodox” though.

I was just giving as many examples of variations and every fighter I listed was unorthodox . I also stated in my first post that the shell defence is definately unorthodox like will just stated . Iam simply shedding light on the topic for the original poster as he seemed to lack knowledge on the topic based off his initial question . The debate will go where it goes. We are all over the differnt types of shell variations which imho suits the topic just fine . Most are agreeing with my that the shell is unorthodox. If it wasnt more fighters would use it . Like will says it takes alot of special attributes and energy especially in Frazier's sake with his non stop bobbing and weaving . This is a really good topic . I love the shell style and it's a shame it is a dying art . The mayweather variation is the closest thing recently and he fought in an orthodox stance aswell and didnt stay in the pocket like the true shell was designed to do . Get inside and **** . Floyd did alot of outside fighting and moving too .

[NORMNEALON]

A lot of people going off on tangents in here.

The Philly shell is unorthodox yes. A fighter needs certain attributes to be able to pull it off. Balance, footwork, reflexes, timing.

Not tangents just educating the original poster on the style he asked about and listed a group of the best fighters I could think of who used said defence . Who were all unorthodox . Me and ******* def got a bit off topic but hey that's where the debate took us . Not like we brought up charlo , andrade , joshua , or wilder like some people seem to do in every thread here haha , either way I like debating with both of you. You guys are real boxing fans and know the sport and I respect that, just pretty passionate about boxing history and love the shell styles haha

[TheMyspaceDayz]

Not looking for a wordy response from anyone here. This isn’t about me or anyone else. Let this message stand on its own.

Thread poster:

these guys do not understand what “orthodox” means. The word orthodox encompasses the word “traditional”, which means long established. Since the Philly Shell evolved from a style over a hundred years old it is orthodox by definition.