Comments Thread For: Vitali Klitschko Investigated: Claims of Treason, Embezzlement

[strykr619]

I'm not saying this like, upset or anything, but I am rightly confused by yer reaction so it might come out a bit WTF, but not angry. It's history; none of us today did anything. I am very interested though, no one really addresses this outright.

Pretty sure that fact endorses what I just told you; inherited a world at war.

The Monroe doctrine (means keep your old world asses out of the new world or else US intervention) did not come out of nowhere. If the old world stayed put and did not come to the new world to colonize and cause terror then the US wouldn't waste its time with congress passing a law that is explicitly about telling y'all to **** off our half the planet.

WWI - We make the League of Nations

WWII - We make the United Nations

Cold War - Monroe becomes NATO

Time and time again, if the Old World quit there **** America wouldn't have anything to react to.

WWI - Germans attack American shipping vessels

WWII - Japanese attack American ports

Cold War - The Soviet Union forms a trading block with the explicit purpose to starve capitalist states.

Reaction

WWI - Germany really wishes they did not attack shipping vessels from the US

WWII - Japan really wishes it did not attack a US harbor

Cold War - USSR ain't even around to have wishes.

Not only are y'all told to simmer yer asses, but, you are informed we won't even tolerate youse attacking one another anymore....but we is equal.


On top of that, who gave the Russians the tech to compete in the first place? That's right.....real hungry for a face-off yeah? Giving them tanks, planes, raw material, fuel, even men. Then, all of a sudden, their tanks, planes, etc are not technically inferior anymore. Hmmm. Right at the same time, take a peek at how the Russians feel about the coming post war scene. Only one of us wanted that trade war.


Literally gave the commies their means to compete with America, debt free. But, yo, we was both gearing up for the obvious Cold War ahead....sure.


That said, show me the 185 year period when it is even possible for America to abstain from Euro ****.

Napoleon happens at the heels of our inception right as England reckons they're bad enough to retake the US while taking on France....was ****** to even try, we did not ask the English to come on back now ya'here.

The worst **** we ever did to anyone was **** with Mexico. Which, btw, y'all never give us **** for. We're dead guilty on that but, instead, y'all wanna pretend like our reactions to European **** is equal to Europeans starting ****. It isn't, our treatment of natives and mexicans is similar, not our reaction to Soviets, not even close.

Wow I wish i can give you more then 1 Green K, I was a Com Sci/History double major and History is a hobby of mine.....

Made respect!

[strykr619]

Man, I'm either gonna have to give you an entirely different version of US and world history from the one you've grown up with or nothing at all, and on this occasion Ima gonna opt for nothing at all. Let's just say that every empire in history has had it's own way of justifying it's right to fuck - lethally - with less powerful nations and basicially take what they want. The only reason you think the US is different is cos you live there.

Anyway, your nation is just doing what others might do if they were as powerful, but if you're gonna to be a serious scholar you need to take the blinkers off your eyes and free yourself from bias as much as you can. That means taking in as many viewpoints as possible, not just the sanitized spoonfed histories provided by your own nation (and the US ain't unique, every nation writes it's histories to justify itself) to justify it's actions, but those of neutral nations too, and those who have been the victims of US aggression. You gotta understand that there is never just one truth in history, merely a multitude of perspectives, and the more of 'em you can wrap your head around the more complete and nuanced your worldview.

Besides, man, you kinda missed my point in your rush to defend the Ol Spangly banner... I wasn't singling out the US, I was saying that all political elites are corrupt, ruthless and self serving, not particularly those of the US. Mfers that ain't evil bastards never usually make it to the top of the pile in the first place, and if by some accident of fate they do, they never last long.

Different version? Sorry but BOTH WORLD WARS were a culmination of Europe and their 800 years of fighting every 30 years.

You can spin it all you want. Both World Wars HAPPENED because of European politics. No way you can dispute that. He explained The entire purpose of the Monroe doctrine (that also was a direct result of the UK and the war of 1812).

[Citizen Koba]

Different version? Sorry but BOTH WORLD WARS were a culmination of Europe and their 800 years of fighting every 30 years.

You can spin it all you want. Both World Wars HAPPENED because of European politics. No way you can dispute that. He explained The entire purpose of the Monroe doctrine (that also was a direct result of the UK and the war of 1812).

Yeah sure both European wars were a result of European politics, where did I say different?The Europeans have always been muderous bastards, my man Rocky was **** on the nose with that.. The war in the Pacific had different casuses but was also entangled in European Imperial politics too though US and Japanese expansionism in the far East was inevitably gonna lead to some kinda showdown between the two powers at some point.

What we can also say is that the US was also a vital, aggressive and ruthless expansionist power almost from it's inception both in the Americas (and the claiming of all the Americas as part of the US sphere of influence is an entirely legitimate way of interpretting the Monroe dectrine btw) and in the Pacific not some angelic experiment in new living. When the US saw their opportunity in WWII they quickly and aggressively leveraged their new found power to assert global dominance. We can go on, man... The Cold War and Soviet 'expansionism'? Domino theories? Don't even get me started on the degree to which both sides spun that one.


I'm not sayting that the US is worse than other historical superpowers (though it's global reach, wealth and modern technologies make it the most dangrous in history), I'm merely pointing out that you guys ain't the hard put upon reluctant imperialists that your version of history would have your people believe. At least not in the view of the rest of the world. But that is predictable. Every major power in histroy has tried to justify it's claim to dominance and it's right to stick the boot in whenever it feels like it somehow and writing history in such a way that it favours a benign version of events to soften genocide and murderous expansion is a tactic as old as historical record.

Right or wrong, good or evil?... I don't even know if such judgements apply, it just is.

But if you view yourselves as the 'world's policeman' that's reluctantly been dragged to into some benign sheparding role you maybe want to try looking at the world from the view of some of the people whose countries have been left in smoking rubble, man. History is never just one version of events... EDIT: Though I'm seeing history is a hobby of yours so you should already know this. It's a hobby of mine also. Particularly the murderous extremes and excesses of the 20th C. Do you catch the reference in my username and byline? Might give you a better idea of how I see the world if you understand the cynicism implicit in the choice I made there.

Lemme see now. If you were trying to find out about the history of the British Empire in the 18th and 19th Century would you assume that, say, the version of history supplied to you by a middle class Britsh shopkeeper of that time was the one to believe? He would tell you about the glory of Queen and Country and how the Britsh army was doing the good work bringing Civilisation to the savages across the globe - and he would believe it with a passion, probably even fight you if you disagreed - becasuse that is what he was being told... sorry man, but from where I'm standing you look a bit like that shopkeeper.

Spread your winfgs a bit.. Read the history of the world as seen through the eyes of other countries. Especially read the histories of those your country names enemies and try to understand how they think and how they perceive you. Try to understand why your country vilifies or 'intervenes' in some countries and not in others who behve in similar ways. Try to get a nuanced, triangulated view.

Until you do that we might as well be speaking a different language... our world views just ain't gonna overlap and putting the work in to build an understanding ain't something I either got the time or inclination to do on a damn boxing forum. When you ain't got enough points of understanding with someone to even agree on the basics all you gonna get is pointless conflict and that ain't what I'm looking to do here.

That's what I was saying and that's why I cut the conversation with Rocky short.

[A-Wolf]

Right. The guy who earned $65,000,000 needs to embezzle. Ok.

[Marchegiano]

Wow I wish i can give you more then 1 Green K, I was a Com Sci/History double major and History is a hobby of mine.....

Made respect!

Apparently we only have this perspective because our schools.

I like Koba, respect Koba, don't want to get into a thing with Koba so I just drop it, but, that's really insulting to anyone with even a passing interest in history. I highly doubt he meant it to be, so best to just drop it.

I mean, if y'all wanted to learn about medieval russian bare knuckle it'd be me who teaches that lesson, but, russians in ww2, nah, incapable of looking at the Russian, Polish, English, etc side of things because I went to school in America.....hence my first comment on the subject; Sometimes I really wish I wasn't American so I could go to bat for American history and not be blamed for nationalism.

I'd be curious the reaction if they didn't have the "Your nation made you that way" default.

Hell, if I did teach Rus boxing history would I be told my nationality forced connections that are not there? Would my sources he discredited simply by saying I'm an American? Probably not, but, WW, global hegemony history, it's like a default response to blame Americanism.


I didn't tell anyone they believe what they believe because their nation was their source. I don't ever, but, that is what we always get. Even from level-headed respectable friendly fellows like Koba. It's an American problem I reckon. The global belief we sit through propaganda in school like commies.

I mean....freedom of press? Nah, state controlled media, they don't even believe in the existence or maybe the practice of our ideals.


Thanks for the words bud, they can't all be zingers but I am known for a few here and there.

[billeau2]

I never cared for either brother as a fighter, though had a grudging admiration for Vitali. But always got the feeling that both men were upstanding individuals. I believe that to be the case and hope things work out for the brothers.

There have already been a few "flames" thrown about over the issue of Russian and the Ukraine. It is a complex issue but one thing became apparent to me. There were people in the statehouse in this country who sabatoged the efforts of Vitali initially. There were people, groups who had interests to protect.

The conflicts between these two spheres goes back a while... including the second world war. So with that in mind, I believe the real issue are groups that are within both matrix' and want more control. People with real good intentions usually suffer for the fools in this case.

[billeau2]

Ahh...so they found Trump's Russian operative

hes right besides Jimmy Hoffa

[DreamFighter]

not really surprising given the way he tag teamed his way into having a title. The Klitsckos are not known for being honourable.

[billeau2]

Man, I'm either gonna have to give you an entirely different version of US and world history from the one you've grown up with or nothing at all, and on this occasion Ima gonna opt for nothing at all. Let's just say that every empire in history has had it's own way of justifying it's right to fuck - lethally - with less powerful nations and basicially take what they want. The only reason you think the US is different is cos you live there.

Anyway, your nation is just doing what others might do if they were as powerful, but if you're gonna to be a serious scholar you need to take the blinkers off your eyes and free yourself from bias as much as you can. That means taking in as many viewpoints as possible, not just the sanitized spoonfed histories provided by your own nation (and the US ain't unique, every nation writes it's histories to justify itself) to justify it's actions, but those of neutral nations too, and those who have been the victims of US aggression. You gotta understand that there is never just one truth in history, merely a multitude of perspectives, and the more of 'em you can wrap your head around the more complete and nuanced your worldview.

Besides, man, you kinda missed my point in your rush to defend the Ol Spangly banner... I wasn't singling out the US, I was saying that all political elites are corrupt, ruthless and self serving, not particularly those of the US. Mfers that ain't evil bastards never usually make it to the top of the pile in the first place, and if by some accident of fate they do, they never last long.

Its always a matter of perspective. When we start to understand the elites what they have is a history that is hidden. No history book can address why there are Pharoanic monuments in ***ish cemetaries in parts of Northern Europe... Or why there is a high concentration of Pharoinic DNA in Switzerland.

I first learned this when I thought I was really smart...Had one of the highest verbal reasoning IQ's and hence, I knew words right? Words have hidden meanings, they pick up and tell us things...we call this the occult in many context, though that is a loaded term. To really understand certain words is to understand these Connotations. I had no idea.

Historical information serves a purpose. It holds together a narrative, but its never the explicit truth. Just like with this thread: Is the Ukraine the place where a bigoted citizenry let the ****s in, to kill and chase off people like my ***ish dad's family? Or was it an outpost, the bread basket, forever put upon and in search of freedom? Is the United States the New World Order? (as Machiageno sort of says) Or just another outpost, where we pay the IRS/ the Queen of England to this day as a corporation? I don't claim to know if this is true, but again, there are proofs that seem to point to some of these ideas.

These are true Rabbit holes indeed. At the end of the day...he who controls the narrative controls the social programming.

[strykr619]

Apparently we only have this perspective because our schools.

I like Koba, respect Koba, don't want to get into a thing with Koba so I just drop it, but, that's really insulting to anyone with even a passing interest in history. I highly doubt he meant it to be, so best to just drop it.

I mean, if y'all wanted to learn about medieval russian bare knuckle it'd be me who teaches that lesson, but, russians in ww2, nah, incapable of looking at the Russian, Polish, English, etc side of things because I went to school in America.....hence my first comment on the subject; Sometimes I really wish I wasn't American so I could go to bat for American history and not be blamed for nationalism.

I'd be curious the reaction if they didn't have the "Your nation made you that way" default.

Hell, if I did teach Rus boxing history would I be told my nationality forced connections that are not there? Would my sources he discredited simply by saying I'm an American? Probably not, but, WW, global hegemony history, it's like a default response to blame Americanism.


I didn't tell anyone they believe what they believe because their nation was their source. I don't ever, but, that is what we always get. Even from level-headed respectable friendly fellows like Koba. It's an American problem I reckon. The global belief we sit through propaganda in school like commies.

I mean....freedom of press? Nah, state controlled media, they don't even believe in the existence or maybe the practice of our ideals.


Thanks for the words bud, they can't all be zingers but I am known for a few here and there.

Russians won't even acknowledge that the reason Stalin was able to hold off the German's until the factories in the Urals was able to start putting out arms was because of our tanks and weapons we sent to them in mass. That and Hitler was so full of himself and always thought he knew better then his Generals/Admirals. Realistically if he had stuck to the ORIGINAL Time table. Germany wasn't suppose to start the war until 1948 when their Naval buildup was complete....