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The big problem Ive always had with this & the p4p goat type discussions is a guy like Wlad can never beat out Ali or other guys cuz he was born in the wrong era. This is why Im bigger on saying whoever is the best of his era or among the best of his era more than I feel comfortable making some judgement call on where guys rank all time or whos better than who.
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I think the biggest factor is single mindedness. Zeroing in on exactly what you want to accomplish and what you want to be, and pursuing that. The curve going from decent, to good, to great, to elite, to ATG is extremely logarithmic. It takes MUCH more work to go from great to elite than it is to go from good to great.
Most guys lose focus, or get distracted by many other things that they do not focus on that one sport to become great. It's that drive that guys like Kobe and Jordan had to be better than anyone. It's not enough to lift weights and train fr 4 hours a day. You need to visualize what you want to be.
It's what makes identifying prospects relatively easy. You'll look at guys like Haney or Canelo when they were young, they look spectacular, have advanced skills, and are easily much better than anyone else at their age/level.Comment
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That's more than fair, I was trying to speak to what I believe is the mass consensus more than how I actually judge fighters.
For me, for myself, I'm absolutely fine with the vague criteria of whatever impresses me most actually.
Even in eras where both are competitive and resumes are able to be formed it's still hard to compare because eras hardly have the same rules and atmospheres.
Boxing is entertainment and one thing that's gotten boxers to box a certain way even more so than effectiveness in the ring is what people want to see. The same could be said for ethnicity.
Daniel Mendoza I consider a transcendent ATG, I mean bigger than his own era and own form or rule system of boxing, and also i reckon him the single most import character to modern boxing. He is the man who started using the press to hype his fights, he also used racism to sell tickets, he's the first to sell tickets to his fights, and he's the inventor of boxing defense for more rather the theory that it's better to hit and not be hit back and a whole system that supports it. He is the prototype for the modern pugilist but his resume is a bit crap and his advancements in boxing were more a reaction to anti-***ish sentiments in Europe than a planned attack against a vulnerable industry.
When Irish Americans were the biggest audience Irish Americans were also champions.
Hell, immigration to the US and global power shifts in politics are both captured by boxing.
Irish Americans when Irish Americans are the new audience.
An englishman just long enough for Queen Vic's Diamond Jubilee celebration
Canada happened to own the HW crown just as Canada was poised to be the hegemony of the 20th century, their Pm gave a whole speech about how the future would be Canadian. WWs happened though.
Black Americans as soon as they're free enough to box.
*******s just before world war II
Italian-Americans when they're immigrating to the US.
Civil rights movement gave us Ali.
So on for all of history.
I'm impressed by leaving a mark, having a true all time record that's actually rare to contest from 686BC to now, having a squence like Walcott's shuffle or sucka punch to brag about, a Suzie Q is nice, A great resume is nice, if you have no real dance partner putting bums down like they don't belong in your ring, like Tyson, is a good statement.
Holyfield is the only four time HW champion except for Onomastos of Smyrna and Tisandros of Naxos, couple of ancient dudes.
Given only two from the ancient era could do it, none from the bare knuckle era could do it, and only from the queensberry era did it I'm incline to give Evander ATG status regardless of resume.
Holyfield has one I'm just saying he doesn't need it to be an ATG.
Now take my man Rocky for example, ten in the bare knuckle era and at least five from the ancient world, Rocky's in the company of 15 men actually. He's still an ATG, dominated the piss out of his era, but his all time record of being the only unbeaten HW champion is kinda a lie.
Like Pac's 8 weight division nonsense. Also kind of a lie.
I'm not saying they're not ATGs, obviously I'm a Marciano fan but it isn't actually because he's unbeaten it's because he's the only modern HW champion to use bare knuckle and ancient era techniques. I see him as more of an avatar for a past that's been forgotten by most when it should be upheld as the greatest **** in boxing history. Rocky Marciano is no the only undefeated HW champion in boxing history, he is the last one, and he used the same skill set as his forefathers to crush modern ideals in the same era quite a few of them were pioneered. He's a man between worlds and I love him for it.
So, yeah, I can definitely see why you'd want to keep people in their eras but I think for me the opposite. While I recognize it's unfair to compare eras I think those who have something to show that no one else ever did, regardless of any other circumstance, ever, you've made a hell of a statement.
Which brings me to Roy Jones Jr.
Not even close to the first MW to HW, long befor Fitzsimmons there was quite a few undersized HW champions from the bare knuckle era and ancient era. Mendoza being one of them.
What none of the ancient or any of the bare knuckles guys ever did was actually put on weight and fight and win the HW crown in a HW division that had a minimum weight. None of them had to learn how to box in a new body. Roy Jones Jr. and Roy Jones Jr. alone from 686BC to now is the only man to ever do it.
Then again...only kinda...1/4 the crown really.
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If ur talking bout that Salido fight then no, low blows and holding for dear life is not good boxing. Not to mention not even making weight smhLast edited by Pkety; 09-24-2019, 07:20 PM.Comment
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Variety of things. Some guys are just better at a particular thing.
For example, some guys make weight better than others so they're fresher on fight night, well hydrated with good stamina, and are probably bigger.
Some guys have very good fundamentals and can outbox opponents all other things the same.
Some guys manage their emotions and anxiety well and dont get caught up being on television or by station interviews and press conferences.
Some guys have special power or special speed or special toughness/chin. They use whatever gift they have to outperform their opponent.
Some guys are very intelligent and can intuitively outmaneuver their opponent like a chess match (i.e., counter punchers)
As other posters have said...its probably a variety of things, but most champs have a chip on their shoulder and are highly competitive.Comment
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Good point. Lots of guys fall off the wagon during their career because theyve reached the things they set out for...money, girls, fame, etc.
Once they get those things their training becomes half-a$sed and they take less difficult fights/avoid real threats...Peter Quillin, Gary Russell Jr., JCC Jr., etcComment
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