Can you pinpoint the exact fight where it was clear Holyfield was taking steroids?

[HitmanTommy]

anyone know?

[Mitchell Kane]

I've always been suspected maybe after the first Bowe loss.

He changed trainers, started working with Manny Steward, bulked up considerably and came in at a career-high weight for his next fight...the second fight against Alex Stewart.

[blue_dolphin]

[john l]

anyone know?

The 2nd Bowe fight right around that time he went from 205-8 after he was 218 and had more explosiveness and power.Also Lewis close to same time went from 227 or so to 245 with no fat and same speed.Pac I think the Diaz fight at that point he should have been losing power and explosiveness but instead he starting hitting even harder.Think about it EVERYONE starts to lose those things at best AROUND 3rd or 4th weight div.That was Pac's 4th not even counting his 112 reign and skipping 2 weight classes if you count those it was his 7th.Show me another guy in history who did not lose power and explosiveness around his 3rd or 4th division.SRL was not same fighter at 160,SRR was not same at 160 even with a guy like Hearns whose body was made to go up divisions lost some pop at 68 his 4th.H Armstrong was not KOing guys at 47 he was wearing them down, but he did not start hitting harder.Pac not only showed that at 35 but also when he moved up more at 40,47.Thats why so many fighters thought he was juicing most you have to read between lines because they don't wanna get sued.Guys like Malignaggi and C Byrd have all but came out and said it, and many more.The little guys around 108 who win titles around age 20 in 4-5 fights can move up a little more because 1st their age and 2nd because of how little the difference between weight classes.Remember im just forgetting about his time at 112 and skipping 2 weights and just pretending he was a natural 122 from start and it still should/did make people be confident in saying that about him.Do you hear any other fighters saying what many said about Pac except maybe to possible opponents.

[Boksfan]

Second Bowe fight.

[richardt]

At least when his twin brother, "Evan Fields", lol, ordered steroids to be delivered.

[richardt]

Wikipedia:
However, a patient by the name of "Evan Fields" caught investigators' attention. "Fields" shares the same birth date as Holyfield, October 19, 1962. The listed address for "Fields" was 794 Evander, Fairfield, Ga. 30213. Holyfield has a very similar address. When the phone number that, according to the documents, was associated with the "Fields" prescription, was dialed, Holyfield answered.

[richardt]

Pac not only showed that at 35 but also when he moved up more at 40,47.Thats why so many fighters thought he was juicing most you have to read between lines because they don't wanna get sued.Guys like Malignaggi and C Byrd have all but came out and said it, and many more.The little guys around 108 who win titles around age 20 in 4-5 fights can move up a little more because 1st their age and 2nd because of how little the difference between weight classes.Remember im just forgetting about his time at 112 and skipping 2 weights and just pretending he was a natural 122 from start and it still should/did make people be confident in saying that about him.Do you hear any other fighters saying what many said about Pac except maybe to possible opponents.

The entire Pac gaining power as he moved up was proven as a complete myth as shown in this article from a few years back that still holds true:

Pacquiao's mysterious ability to carry ridiculous power up through the weight classes is a really popular talking point by the (for what of a better term) pro-Pacquiao-PED gang, or the PPPs for short.

So let's break down his career into weights and ages, using Pacquiao's full record on Boxrec.

Early Career

Pro debut aged 16 and 1 month, he weighed 106lbs (light flyweight).

4th fight, aged 16, is at 110lbs (flyweight). His first loss is at flyweight, aged 17 as he is knocked out by the 23 year old Torrecampo in February 1996. After a decision victory in his next fight, Pacquiao is 11-1 with 4 kayos. That's a 30% knockout ratio.

112lbs + First World Title

He then goes on a knockout run culminating in winning his first world title, aged 18, the WBC flyweight title. Only 1 opponent makes it the distance in 14 fights. In his third defense of the title, Pacquiao misses weight and is knocked out with a body shot by rising Thai prospect Singsurat, who is 18-0 and 6 months older than Pacquiao whom attributes the loss to weight draining.

122lbs + Second World Title

Pacquiao then goes up 3 weight divisions for his next fight (yes, 3 - bypassing super flyweight and bantamweight) to successfully challenge for the super bantamweight title in December 1999, on his 21st birthday. He fights 12 times in total at 122lbs, winning all fights by kayo and drawing once in a fight prematurely sent to the scorecards after a cut opened by some awful fouls (how this wasn't a DQ is crazy). He last fights at 122lbs aged 24.

126lbs

His stint at featherweight is brief. He defeats Barrera before being robbed of the title by a judging error in his dramatic draw with Juan Manuel Marquez, as the judge who scores it a draw only awards Pacquiao 10-7 for the first round instead of 10-6. He knocks out one more opponent for a final 126lbs record of 2-0-1 (2 kayos) ages 24-25.

130lbs + 3rd World Title

He debuts at 130lbs aged 26, challenging Morales for his super featherweight titles, suffering defeat at the first time above 112lbs. He rebounds to stop Morales twice but is taken the distance in victories over Marquez, Barrera, and Oscar Larios for a final 130lb record of 7-1 with 4 kayos. His destructive power is already not quite as evident at this weight class albeit he is in with elite opponents on a regular basis.

The Rise That Scared Mayweather

He fought once at lightweight, thrashing Diaz en route to a 9th round stoppage. His next fight is at welterweight against Oscar De La Hoya, who, having had serious problems making weight, is stopped on his stool for an 8th round retirement just short of his 30th birthday.

The next 2 fights set up the Pacquiao "must be on PEDs" myth. At 140lbs, Pacquiao destroys Hatton who is unable to deal with Pacquiao's speed and accuracy. Hatton fought a horrible fight, without defense and wild offense.

147lbs + The Last KO

Pacquiao returns to 147lbs to fight Cotto at a catchweight of 145lbs. Cotto is game and brings the fight to Pacquiao, but pays the price as he is dropped twice before succumbing to a 12th round TKO. It is the last stoppage victory of Pacquiao's career (to date).

At welterweight, against competitive opposition there is only 1 stoppage (Cotto). He came close to getting other stoppages (Margarito, Marquez, Algieri) and has dropped several guys (Mosley, Algieri, Marquez). His welterweight record, to date, is 9-2 with 2 kayos.

Conclusion

I think we can put to bed the notion that Pacquiao's punching power carried unhindered through the weights - one of the core arguments of the PPPs as to why he must have taken PEDs. There is a clear progression of 'power' which peaks at 122lbs. As he climbs above that, his kayo % drops (with insufficient samples at 135/140 to show this) and his stoppages trend towards later in fights after accumulation.

[jglvz256]

When Tyson bit his ear and injected all his own steroids into him.

[john l]

The entire Pac gaining power as he moved up was proven as a complete myth as shown in this article from a few years back that still holds true:

Pacquiao's mysterious ability to carry ridiculous power up through the weight classes is a really popular talking point by the (for what of a better term) pro-Pacquiao-PED gang, or the PPPs for short.

So let's break down his career into weights and ages, using Pacquiao's full record on Boxrec.

Early Career

Pro debut aged 16 and 1 month, he weighed 106lbs (light flyweight).

4th fight, aged 16, is at 110lbs (flyweight). His first loss is at flyweight, aged 17 as he is knocked out by the 23 year old Torrecampo in February 1996. After a decision victory in his next fight, Pacquiao is 11-1 with 4 kayos. That's a 30% knockout ratio.

112lbs + First World Title

He then goes on a knockout run culminating in winning his first world title, aged 18, the WBC flyweight title. Only 1 opponent makes it the distance in 14 fights. In his third defense of the title, Pacquiao misses weight and is knocked out with a body shot by rising Thai prospect Singsurat, who is 18-0 and 6 months older than Pacquiao whom attributes the loss to weight draining.

122lbs + Second World Title

Pacquiao then goes up 3 weight divisions for his next fight (yes, 3 - bypassing super flyweight and bantamweight) to successfully challenge for the super bantamweight title in December 1999, on his 21st birthday. He fights 12 times in total at 122lbs, winning all fights by kayo and drawing once in a fight prematurely sent to the scorecards after a cut opened by some awful fouls (how this wasn't a DQ is crazy). He last fights at 122lbs aged 24.

126lbs

His stint at featherweight is brief. He defeats Barrera before being robbed of the title by a judging error in his dramatic draw with Juan Manuel Marquez, as the judge who scores it a draw only awards Pacquiao 10-7 for the first round instead of 10-6. He knocks out one more opponent for a final 126lbs record of 2-0-1 (2 kayos) ages 24-25.

130lbs + 3rd World Title

He debuts at 130lbs aged 26, challenging Morales for his super featherweight titles, suffering defeat at the first time above 112lbs. He rebounds to stop Morales twice but is taken the distance in victories over Marquez, Barrera, and Oscar Larios for a final 130lb record of 7-1 with 4 kayos. His destructive power is already not quite as evident at this weight class albeit he is in with elite opponents on a regular basis.

The Rise That Scared Mayweather

He fought once at lightweight, thrashing Diaz en route to a 9th round stoppage. His next fight is at welterweight against Oscar De La Hoya, who, having had serious problems making weight, is stopped on his stool for an 8th round retirement just short of his 30th birthday.

The next 2 fights set up the Pacquiao "must be on PEDs" myth. At 140lbs, Pacquiao destroys Hatton who is unable to deal with Pacquiao's speed and accuracy. Hatton fought a horrible fight, without defense and wild offense.

147lbs + The Last KO

Pacquiao returns to 147lbs to fight Cotto at a catchweight of 145lbs. Cotto is game and brings the fight to Pacquiao, but pays the price as he is dropped twice before succumbing to a 12th round TKO. It is the last stoppage victory of Pacquiao's career (to date).

At welterweight, against competitive opposition there is only 1 stoppage (Cotto). He came close to getting other stoppages (Margarito, Marquez, Algieri) and has dropped several guys (Mosley, Algieri, Marquez). His welterweight record, to date, is 9-2 with 2 kayos.

Conclusion

I think we can put to bed the notion that Pacquiao's punching power carried unhindered through the weights - one of the core arguments of the PPPs as to why he must have taken PEDs. There is a clear progression of 'power' which peaks at 122lbs. As he climbs above that, his kayo % drops (with insufficient samples at 135/140 to show this) and his stoppages trend towards later in fights after accumulation.

Show me another 122pder who carried his power though to 147?Like I said im just pretending he did not start fighting world class at 112 at age 20.IDK what to tell you and don't wanna waste time with someone who clearly already has his mind made up for whatever reasons.No one in history has even come close to having them results in his 6,7,8 weights.Also I think im giving him credit because it starts to get suspect around 2nd Morales fight, but ill give him benefit of doubt on that and also his improvement between 1st and 2nd Marquez fights.Go back in history and show me a 122 pder who could even compete much less destroy even Hatton at 40 much less Cotto at 45 or what he did to Margarito at 50.Like I said even Armstrong did not show same power as he moved up and he was bigger starting out then Pac.Also I notice you just skip reasons why he did what he did with Hatton(except saying he fought ****** fight)and also with Cotto.Also why no testing when fight was all but signed with May in 2010 that's all he needed to do to get fight and he says "im afraid of needles"when he has more tats then a biker?Even Roach says the reason fight did not happen 1st time around in 2010 was because of them.Its on youtube for anyone to see just search for it.BTW he was not 18 when he won 112 he was 20(or about a week away)and 21 when he lost it also not 21 when he won 122 like I said that was age when he lost 112(or about a week away also)