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"Too Fast" Fury vs "Sonny" Liston: Who wins?

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  • #71
    Originally posted by LoadedWraps View Post
    Lol I meant Kevin johnson

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    • #72
      Originally posted by todisday View Post
      A focused Tyson Fury is a nightmare fight for most heavyweights, from any period. He may win some and lose some, but he'd still be a pain to deal with, for anyone. It took possibly the hardest puncher in heavyweight history to KO him.

      And he's not done yet. I have a feeling we're about to see the best Tyson Fury in this rematch. He is leaning out almost to Wilder-level, and by fight time it may be even form. This is better physical conditioning than even the Klitschko fight. The reason why I'm rooting for Wilder is because I believe in his potential. It won't be a walk in the park, though.
      The rematch might be one of the greatest fights in the history of prize fighting. Certainly easily of our generation.

      Wilder and Fury will be trading leather and spilling blood, for 12 violent rounds in a barn burner that makes the average war look like the average snoozefest.

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      • #73
        Fury. Liston was way, way smaller and was badly overrated.
        moneytheman moneytheman likes this.

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        • #74
          Originally posted by Boxing Goat View Post
          Fury. Liston was way, way smaller and was badly overrated.
          Why was he overrated?

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          • #75
            Tyson Fury would win !
            moneytheman moneytheman likes this.

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            • #76
              Originally posted by 4truth View Post
              Liston was too slow and too short.
              Do some research... Look up Liston's reach. I mean try to comment intelligently. If you think it through you will find that IF Liston was short (he wasn't) it would be to his advantage Having one of the largest wingspans (reach) ever in the sport. Would you rather be big and have that span, or a smaller target?

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              • #77
                The Gypsy caravan versus the Night train!

                Fury has old time skills imo. He knows how to move, counterpunch, keep guys on their heels, etc. But as Dempsey said in his post... Liston had an answer for that. Lets look at the match up physically:

                They both have great reach, no advantage. Liston has power that Tyson gives up for the sake of mobility and Fury has the advantage in mobility... Both have good whiskers. I don't care if Fury gets knocked down, as Mas Oyama once said of the karate fighter, "get knocked down 9 time, get up 10!"

                Defensively advantage to Fury, but Liston is better than people think. He had bouts where he seemed to make a calculated decision to trade, as with Williams, but there are also bouts where he does not do so. He can be suprisingly mobile. Watch him against Marshall for example.

                What stands out is that Liston can hurt Fury, Fury not so sure if he could hurt Liston. As much as I hate to bring this up again and again... This fight could very well be totally different as a 12 rounder versus a 15 rounder. A puncher needs those last few chances, to chase down and connect and try to maintain his power to end the contest. lets take two guys who have to figure each other out: The first three rounds might be even stephen and not matter, though they have to be given to somebody.

                Then we have maybe three rounds where the guys go and do what they can, we are half way through a 12 rounder here, one guy could figure out how to be evasive for a few rounds, and maybe there are a few rounds of activity, suddenly we have two rounds left... With a 15 rounder? the fight is really starting in a way, both guys have to carefully conserve, have to find a way to operate with diminishing resources, a puncher can count on many opportunities and a counter puncher can count on many chances to counter, and to try to fight in spurts to attack the puncher.

                A great example of this dynamic is the classic Louis versus Conn fight: Conn fought in spurts, he did well with his opportunities and had Louis beat, but Louis had enough opportunity to bank on a few more chances to land, and the rest is history.

                I think Liston would be too much for the Gypsy King at this junction, but I think a 12 rounder might be close, and I could see Fury maybe squeaking by in points. But even then...I think he loses at least one 10-8 round. In a 15 rounder it goes to Liston no doubt. We have precedent, we saw Wilder manage to get off. Liston was one of the best finishers, actually I can't think of a better finisher except maybe jack D. This brings up the possibility that while a fresh Fury may be able to avoid Liston finishing him, (Wilder does have good finishing skills) I don't think he could keep Liston off of him in the later rounds:

                He is a big target, Liston measured his men carefully and Fury would catch it to the body if he tried to clinch. BUT in an early 10-8 round? I do think Fury is good enough to get up, survive and return fire. Wilder has some of that Liston ability imo, and we saw Fury deal with it...the ability to finish the job at all costs. The one big difference is that while Wilder is piss, vinegar and fire...Liston is all those things with a slide rule, and a computer lol. Watch how Liston handles guys he has in trouble... Watch how he guages his distance, cuts the ring off properly, and keeps the right angles while battering them into submission. Wilder may do this one day, but right now he goes whole ham!

                With that said, if Fury fights on, if he handles Wilder like I think he will, and gains experience, I might give him the fight in the future. I don't think he has reached his prime yet.
                Last edited by billeau2; 02-09-2019, 03:31 PM.

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                • #78
                  Originally posted by el*** View Post
                  And?

                  Cunningham and Wilder both dropped Fury. Its really inconceivable that Liston could also drop Fury and finish him off when he was the same weight as them?

                  You think Liston is less skilled than Wilder's windmilling?

                  Is he less skilled than Cunningham?

                  What does Fury's close UD over a Wladimir who was 4 months shy of 40 years old have to do with talking prime vs prime match ups?
                  Keeping in mind that to most trainers who lived starting with Johnson and as seniors seeing Ali fight, the two best finishers at heavyweight were Dempsey and Liston. Liston was precise with his skills... It is pretty obvious that Wilder did not pressure Fury when he knocked him down like Liston would. Liston was a brutal finisher. This is a big deal when considering who would win this fight.

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                  • #79
                    Originally posted by billeau2 View Post
                    Fury has old time skills imo. He knows how to move, counterpunch, keep guys on their heels, etc. But as Dempsey said in his post... Liston had an answer for that. Lets look at the match up physically:

                    They both have great reach, no advantage. Liston has power that Tyson gives up for the sake of mobility and Fury has the advantage in mobility... Both have good whiskers. I don't care if Fury gets knocked down, as Mas Oyama once said of the karate fighter, "get knocked down 9 time, get up 10!"

                    Defensively advantage to Fury, but Liston is better than people think. He had bouts where he seemed to make a calculated decision to trade, as with Williams, but there are also bouts where he does not do so. He can be suprisingly mobile. Watch him against Marshall for example.

                    What stands out is that Liston can hurt Fury, Fury not so sure if he could hurt Liston. As much as I hate to bring this up again and again... This fight could very well be totally different as a 12 rounder versus a 15 rounder. A puncher needs those last few chances, to chase down and connect and try to maintain his power to end the contest. lets take two guys who have to figure each other out: The first three rounds might be even stephen and not matter, though they have to be given to somebody.

                    Then we have maybe three rounds where the guys go and do what they can, we are half way through a 12 rounder here, one guy could figure out how to be evasive for a few rounds, and maybe there are a few rounds of activity, suddenly we have two rounds left... With a 15 rounder? the fight is really starting in a way, both guys have to carefully conserve, have to find a way to operate with diminishing resources, a puncher can count on many opportunities and a counter puncher can count on many chances to counter, and to try to fight in spurts to attack the puncher.

                    A great example of this dynamic is the classic Louis versus Conn fight: Conn fought in spurts, he did well with his opportunities and had Louis beat, but Louis had enough opportunity to bank on a few more chances to land, and the rest is history.

                    I think Liston would be too much for the Gypsy King at this junction, but I think a 12 rounder might be close, and I could see Fury maybe squeaking by in points. But even then...I think he loses at least one 10-8 round. In a 15 rounder it goes to Liston no doubt. We have precedent, we saw Wilder manage to get off. Liston was one of the best finishers, actually I can't think of a better finisher except maybe jack D. This brings up the possibility that while a fresh Fury may be able to avoid Liston finishing him, (Wilder does have good finishing skills) I don't think he could keep Liston off of him in the later rounds:

                    He is a big target, Liston measured his men carefully and Fury would catch it to the body if he tried to clinch. BUT in an early 10-8 round? I do think Fury is good enough to get up, survive and return fire. Wilder has some of that Liston ability imo, and we saw Fury deal with it...the ability to finish the job at all costs. The one big difference is that while Wilder is piss, vinegar and fire...Liston is all those things with a slide rule, and a computer lol. Watch how Liston handles guys he has in trouble... Watch how he guages his distance, cuts the ring off properly, and keeps the right angles while battering them into submission. Wilder may do this one day, but right now he goes whole ham!

                    With that said, if Fury fights on, if he handles Wilder like I think he will, and gains experience, I might give him the fight in the future. I don't think he has reached his prime yet.
                    A 15 rounder would just give 2 Fast Fury 3 more rounds to punish, if not stop a game but bleeding out Liston.
                    Last edited by LoadedWraps; 02-09-2019, 10:38 PM. Reason: lmao

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                    • #80
                      Originally posted by billeau2 View Post
                      Do some research... Look up Liston's reach. I mean try to comment intelligently. If you think it through you will find that IF Liston was short (he wasn't) it would be to his advantage Having one of the largest wingspans (reach) ever in the sport. Would you rather be big and have that span, or a smaller target?
                      Iím very familiar with Sonny Liston, thanks. Liston had very long arms, true. Same wingspan as Jennings but shorter in stature. Sonny was also slow footed and had slow hands.

                      Stand facing the wall, close enough to touch it with your fist, arm straight out. Now without moving forward or stretching out, raise your fist 9 inches. Being relatively short, Liston would have a substantial reach disadvantage.
                      moneytheman moneytheman likes this.

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