A reasonable discussion on the Middleweight division

[Metho_4u]

I understand the need for having world-class fights in all divisions. However, coming to this forum has truly opened my eyes to the limitless stupidity of human beings. One of the biggest discussion in the past few years have been about the legitimacy of Middleweight champion, GGG.

Through the years, I have only seen the bar moved farther away after each fight. 2017 was one of the biggest years of GGG's boxing career and it seems the the brigade of armchair warriors have also increased meanwhile. Fighting and keeping his belts against the top two contenders in MW in the same year is apparently not enough for a boxer anymore. Then the question arises, at what point can a boxer truly escape scrutiny?

The conclusion I've come to is never. The expectations are always high, even if it has no basis or connection to reality. Every top guy of the division, not just GGG alone is apparently supposed to fight 1 world class opponent after another. This delusion pretty much instantly stops itself when one realizes how rare world class fighters are. In every division, there is hardly 1-2 A class fighters. Who are these world class opponents that a champion is supposed to defend against then? Well for one, the idea of moving up the weights has been thrown around.

From a purely historical perspective, this is plain stupid. Under no circumstances should a boxer move up unless he starts very low to begin with. Why? If a boxer moves up, he is expected to keep leaping weights until he is defeated and for what? Once defeated, they turn into the very same fighters who are referred to as taxi drivers and bums. This has been seen over and over again, how the armchair 'lads' with no experience in pretty much any combat sports ****s on fighters who could break their jaws with little to no effort.

As it stands, a top professional boxer can never win with the NSB crowd, which really sheds light on how much boxing discussion actually takes place here. The ****posters keep throwing in names of world beaters such as Charlos, Lara etc etc. but only until they take their first loss. Lara has seemingly hit the abyss after his last loss and looks like the fangirls have jumped to a new ship. One that of Sergiy Derevyanchenko, just like they did with the previous IBF mandatory in Trueno Johnson and Dominic Wade.

TL;DR - GGG can only become top p4p if he wins against Canelo, BJS and Derevyanchenko on the same night, 1v3, while having his arms tied. Canelo et al. can keep fighting the Spike o Sullivans, Trueno Johnson and whatever leftovers come along though.

This is rather pathetic... he had a VERY close fight with Jacobs and whether people like it or not, a draw with Canelo, which anyone who knows boxing, knows canelo made him look like an amateur, and landed all of the cleaner punches. People want to give canelo a hard time because of the tests, but the hair test came back negative, thus if you're a golemovkin fan, you're going to call him a cheater, if you're a canelo fan, you're going to feel he's cleared... boxing is politics, you haven't figured that out yet?

[bigjavi973]

Are golemovkin fans t@rded?

no one passes jubei for that honor

when it comes to ggg hes the 1st in line every time

[j0zef]

I can see why people feel that way & lets not ignore the obvious that boxing is a more dangerous sport where the intent is to do damage to someone, not to score a goal or what have you, but to me the integrity of the sport would be beyond reproach if upon winning a title the quality of your opposition was at a bare minimum of a indie ranked top 10 guy for example. It would add more meaning to title defenses & length of reigns. It would prove the strength of your talent vs the consensus of the division at that time in history.

And for me I hold the top P4P discussed guys under that sort of quality control & when they are fighting guys like Vanes I believe its a terrible look for boxing & makes us look like a joke to other sports fans & it feels like a joke.

There's only so many people you can fight that are 'top10'. Everyone dips into the 'top20' part, unless you're fighting once a year. It's also difficult to fight top10 opponents on short notice. It has happened previously (Vitali), but it truly is rare.

The actual issue here is that IMO folks on NSB tend to overreact significantly and easily hype up guys or call others absolute bums. Charlo & Derevyanchenko are world beaters now despite doing barely anything. Charlo knocked out an injured guy with 4 losses, while Derevyanchenko never fought a ~top20 opponents. I am not saying they're not good, I think they're both excellent. But they have no resume - they just pass the eye test.

In another breath, Vanes is EASILY a top5 SWW. MW is 6 lbs away. It's not like he's moving 3 weight divisions and is suddenly an absolute bum. If Vanes starts campaigning at MW full time, he's top20 material without a shadow of the doubt.

Vanes was inactive and on paper, doesn't have the style to beat Golovkin. Doesn't mean he's a bum and that this is a disgrace to boxing. A disgrace to boxing was Ward vs. Brand and if Golovkin vs. Munguia was made. Those are disgraces. Virtually everyone Gilberto Ramirez has fought since Abraham were disgraces.

A top20 opponent on a short notice? Nothing to complain about.

[Metho_4u]

no one passes jubei for that honor

when it comes to ggg hes the 1st in line every time

Yes, I do believe you're right, but he's got me on ignore... I called him out too many times and he couldn't handle it

[bigjavi973]

Yes, I do believe you're right, but he's got me on ignore... I called him out too many times and he couldn't handle it

Jubei for realz?

take him off ignore bruh you cant really be a hypocrite with ggg and have others on ignore....

DO it now or ill put you on ignore for the entire weekend so no commenting for you in the ggg thread

[Eff Pandas]

There's only so many people you can fight that are 'top10'.

Well I mean okay, but its not like there are THAT many guys who'd need to be in play here. If we got 4 title holders that means we need 4 out of the indie top 10 to fight them in theory. And maybe everyone isn't fighting on the same schedule & then once guys win or lose then guys move out of or into the top 10 or into or out of a title. Its ever influx.

It's also difficult to fight top10 opponents on short notice. It has happened previously (Vitali), but it truly is rare.

This is understandable, but we know Derevyanchenko was ready to fight on short notice & ready to fight for short money from all I've heard. And me personally I've tried to mention with my disapproval of Vanes & angling towards GGG vs a real 160lb contender that I'd have had lil issue with them pushing back the fight date by 2-6wks or w/e they needed to do properly train for a new opponent. Cuz while I like the drama of a high level short notice fight I think it can often turn into an unfair advantage based on the shape someone was in or what they were originally training for. I'd rather a title holder + a contender be given a proper time table to train & to train for the specific opponent they will be fighting.

The actual issue here is that IMO folks on NSB tend to overreact significantly and easily hype up guys or call others absolute bums.

I think there is some truth to that. But again its the dumbest guys who do it & I think we give those guys too much dominance of controlling the narrative that just isn't true. So pretty much when you are calling everyone outside of 7 of the guys on the P4P list bums I know your opinion holds lil value to me.

Charlo & Derevyanchenko are world beaters now despite doing barely anything.

I'm not seeing this so much doe I must say. I see people excited about the prospect of what Charlo & Derevyanchenko might be able to do. And there is always the vocal dummies saying dummy sh^t, but largely people see GGG & Canelo as up on top & they see this 2nd tier of very promising guys who are already top 5ish caliber guys & ready to succeed or fail vs GGG & Canelo or each other & they will be doing that soon enough. And Derevyanchenko should have been given his opportunity to do just that tomorrow or sometime in June.

In another breath, Vanes is EASILY a top5 SWW. MW is 6 lbs away. It's not like he's moving 3 weight divisions and is suddenly an absolute bum. If Vanes starts campaigning at MW full time, he's top20 material without a shadow of the doubt.

Yea idk about any of this. I know Vanes hasn't fought in 2 years. I know Vanes hasn't won a fight in 3 years. I know his best W is over Ishe Smith (37yrs, who'd lost 2 of his last 4 going into his fight with Vanes). I know his second best W is probably over Willie Lee (17-5, retired at 17-7) or Saul Roman (who'd lost 3 of his last 5). I know Vanes isn't a ranked contender for any 160lb belt. I know if boxing was on the up & up with two years of inactivity & three years of no W's Vanes shouldn't be ranked by any non-corrupt ABC Group.

Doesn't mean he's a bum and that this is a disgrace to boxing.

The threshold for a fight shouldn't be "he's not a complete bum". One of my biggest pet peeves in boxing is the matchmatching & whats sanctioned by commissions & there is absolutely no reason a fight with what should be a unranked 154lber who's not won in 3 years vs a guy who's the #1 guy at 160 & who's been unbeaten in a 13 year, 38 fight career should be made or sanctioned late notice or not.

A top20 opponent on a short notice? Nothing to complain about.

Again I take extreme issue with you telling me a guy who's not fought in 2 years & who's not won a fight in 3 years is a top 20 guy.

Do you honestly believe a guy who's not fought for 2 years should be ranked at all? Do you honestly believe a guy who's not won a fight in 3 years should be ranked in the top 20?

[j0zef]

Well I mean okay, but its not like there are THAT many guys who'd need to be in play here. If we got 4 title holders that means we need 4 out of the indie top 10 to fight them in theory. And maybe everyone isn't fighting on the same schedule & then once guys win or lose then guys move out of or into the top 10 or into or out of a title. Its ever influx.



This is understandable, but we know Derevyanchenko was ready to fight on short notice & ready to fight for short money from all I've heard. And me personally I've tried to mention with my disapproval of Vanes & angling towards GGG vs a real 160lb contender that I'd have had lil issue with them pushing back the fight date by 2-6wks or w/e they needed to do properly train for a new opponent. Cuz while I like the drama of a high level short notice fight I think it can often turn into an unfair advantage based on the shape someone was in or what they were originally training for. I'd rather a title holder + a contender be given a proper time table to train & to train for the specific opponent they will be fighting.



I think there is some truth to that. But again its the dumbest guys who do it & I think we give those guys too much dominance of controlling the narrative that just isn't true. So pretty much when you are calling everyone outside of 7 of the guys on the P4P list bums I know your opinion holds lil value to me.



I'm not seeing this so much doe I must say. I see people excited about the prospect of what Charlo & Derevyanchenko might be able to do. And there is always the vocal dummies saying dummy sh^t, but largely people see GGG & Canelo as up on top & they see this 2nd tier of very promising guys who are already top 5ish caliber guys & ready to succeed or fail vs GGG & Canelo or each other & they will be doing that soon enough. And Derevyanchenko should have been given his opportunity to do just that tomorrow or sometime in June.



Yea idk about any of this. I know Vanes hasn't fought in 2 years. I know Vanes hasn't won a fight in 3 years. I know his best W is over Ishe Smith (37yrs, who'd lost 2 of his last 4 going into his fight with Vanes). I know his second best W is probably over Willie Lee (17-5, retired at 17-7) or Saul Roman (who'd lost 3 of his last 5). I know Vanes isn't a ranked contender for any 160lb belt. I know if boxing was on the up & up with two years of inactivity & three years of no W's Vanes shouldn't be ranked by any non-corrupt ABC Group.



The threshold for a fight shouldn't be "he's not a complete bum". One of my biggest pet peeves in boxing is the matchmatching & whats sanctioned by commissions & there is absolutely no reason a fight with what should be a unranked 154lber who's not won in 3 years vs a guy who's the #1 guy at 160 & who's been unbeaten in a 13 year, 38 fight career should be made or sanctioned late notice or not.



Again I take extreme issue with you telling me a guy who's not fought in 2 years & who's not won a fight in 3 years is a top 20 guy.

Do you honestly believe a guy who's not fought for 2 years should be ranked at all? Do you honestly believe a guy who's not won a fight in 3 years should be ranked in the top 20?

Part I agree with is Derevyanchenko. He was ready to fight and didn't make any noise about money. Loeffler ducked him and made 'money' excuse. However my point stands. Derevyanchenko's best win is either Tureano, who most people consider another Domenic Wade, or Sam Soliman, who was over 40 years old. In my personal experience, I think SD is one of the top5 MWs based on my eye test. But his resume does not exist, just like Charlo's.

I'll say this first, I think Vanes is tailor made for Golovkin and think he'll knock him out. HOWEVER, the way you're looking at Vanes is absolutely wrong. Yes, Vanes has not won in 3 years, and his best win is Ishe Smith.
However, he drew with Lara, #1 guy at SWW. He lost 2 close decisions against Charlo, who's currently top3 SWW, and against Andrade, who's ~top5 MW. He also put Andrade down.

Very often a loss counts much more than a win. Any of the 3 losses I mentioned count more than ANYTHING Derevyanchenko or Charlo have done - on paper. The only knock on Vanes is his inactivity over the last 2 years. We don't know how that has affected him. He's not Maidana. He didn't get fat and retire. He had a series of fights fall through. He'll be rusty, but we don't know if this is Vanes cashing out, or just a fighter taking on the biggest fight of his life.

[Eff Pandas]

Part I agree with is Derevyanchenko. He was ready to fight and didn't make any noise about money. Loeffler ducked him and made 'money' excuse. However my point stands. Derevyanchenko's best win is either Tureano, who most people consider another Domenic Wade, or Sam Soliman, who was over 40 years old. In my personal experience, I think SD is one of the top5 MWs based on my eye test. But his resume does not exist, just like Charlo's.

The resume game has nothing to do with this. The fact Derevyanchenko was ranked & the mandatory does. And his resume is still better than most other ranked guys. Thats the problem with the resume game few people wanna bring up. If you fought two semi-relevant to relevant dudes in two years you are probably top ten in your division resume-wise. And Vanes hasn't even fought for two years.

I'll say this first, I think Vanes is tailor made for Golovkin and think he'll knock him out. HOWEVER, the way you're looking at Vanes is absolutely wrong. Yes, Vanes has not won in 3 years, and his best win is Ishe Smith.
However, he drew with Lara, #1 guy at SWW. He lost 2 close decisions against Charlo, who's currently top3 SWW, and against Andrade, who's ~top5 MW. He also put Andrade down.

I've long since given credit to guys for fights they lost or "almost" won. You win or you lose as far as your record goes. You can make it more dramatic in the narrative of building up a fight, but ultimately its all data that works out to a 1 or a 0.

Very often a loss counts much more than a win.

Eh. I mean I know what you are trying to say here, but in the W or L game its all about the W. You can't show me an L & have a good story & expect me to give THAT much of a f#ck about it.

Any of the 3 losses I mentioned more than ANYTHING Derevyanchenko or Charlo have done - on paper.

Sh^t then they shoulda called in Ricardo Mayorga for this fight instead of Vanes if you are THAT impressed with L's.

The only knock on Vanes is his inactivity over the last 2 years.

Thats a pretty big knock lol.

Personally I believe anyone who's not fought in 12mos shouldn't be ranked. Maybe if you got a fight scheduled I'd let a guy slide, but if you've not fought in 2 years you for sure shouldn't be ranked.