A reasonable discussion on the Middleweight division

[kafkod]

I can see why people feel that way & lets not ignore the obvious that boxing is a more dangerous sport where the intent is to do damage to someone, not to score a goal or what have you, but to me the integrity of the sport would be beyond reproach if upon winning a title the quality of your opposition was at a bare minimum of a indie ranked top 10 guy for example. It would add more meaning to title defenses & length of reigns. It would prove the strength of your talent vs the consensus of the division at that time in history.

And for me I hold the top P4P discussed guys under that sort of quality control & when they are fighting guys like Vanes I believe its a terrible look for boxing & makes us look like a joke to other sports fans & it feels like a joke.

I don't think there's any need to worry what fans of other sports think about fights like GGG/Martirosyan, because very few of them know who the legit top 10 are in any division. They won't have heard of Martirosyan ... and they won't have heard of Derevyenchenko or Andrade either!

So you won't hear any grumbling from casuals about why is GGG fighting this guy instead of his mando.

"Mando .. uh? Who da fukk is that guy .. Mando? Never heard of him either ..."

[Eff Pandas]

I've read all your posts and fair enough, you wanted a better opponent and so did many. However, given the context, it is hardly unacceptable.

I'd argue one of the problems with boxing is too much is acceptable as is. The quality control of the product of boxing is like some 24hr mom & pop restaurant in Iowa at 3am on a holiday.

Not to mention, the only other name I saw popping around which made sense was Derev but I'm not sure why everyone keeps jumping on that train like he is a world beater.

Idk that the consensus was HE IS a world beater. Merely he's a top contender, a mandatory & a guy who's shown some promise along with he's about 3x the opponent of Vanes.

And randomly thats all most of the top guys, like GGG, who we talk about most were at one time as well, a top contender who's shown some promise. Guys like Derevyanchenko are the guys who become the next GGG. Granted they usually fall short, but that next generation of guys look like contenders with promise more than anything else before they become what they'll become.

Is it because he is IBF mandatory?

If GGG wants to legit keep all the belts & be the one guy with the belts he should be more mindful of mandatorys.

Randomly I will say I do think GGG has "given up" for lack of a better way to put it. I think thats what his PED tirade was about. He was frustrated, he was mad, he was sick of being treated like a second class citizen in boxing despite all he's done. He was tired of being grateful. And he's tired of these belts & their bs. I think GGG got all up in his emotions for the first time in his professional boxing career & he made a bunch of poor decisions that may or may not bite him in the ass in the near or distant future. I think GGG just wants to get a few fights, a few more big paydays out of the way & he's walking off into the sunset. If Canelo is one of them great. If not thats great to, but dude is kinda done with all the politics & bs I feel like. Or at least at this moment in time. He may chill a lil more after this Vanes fight. He may chill a lil more if he's stripped of the IBF title. But I'm not entirely confident in all that.

Well, Dominic Wade was too and so was Trueno Johnson and I can remember pretty well what most of the people(not only 10% for sure) thought about those matchups with GGG. As far as I can see, Vanes has more experience than Derev, and GGG is likely having a good fight afterwards so all the whining of the '10% mfkers' is just pathetic from all angles.

If you think that many mfers are against GGG I think you need to learn to count. As I stated most mfers can't even be bothered to give enough of a f#ck to comment on most of these dumb posts by a small minority of guys. And for the most part there are always a nice lil segment of 5-10 guys who'll make the same thread over & over & all us who know the routine just ignore them while the noobs & guys who just like to cherry pick arguments with dumb mfers will engage them & keep these dumb ass threads high on the page.

The essence of my first post was that because of these 'few' people, the overall standard of this forum has dropped as far as I can see.

You guys sooooooo don't get it. The more you engage & entertain the dumbest mfers here the more the standard of the forum drops cuz you are engaging these dumb mfers keeping them coming back.

Too many of you "smart" guys will make thread after thread cherry picking these ****** mfers like you are doing some public service or something by calling them out or w/e. Thats ******ed. You don't feed the stray cat unless you want it to comeback to your house.

Ignore the dipsh^ts here. And quit acting like swatting back their ****** arguments/opinions that are easily taken apart piece by piece is doing anything good for this site. You not engaging with cats who can't make sensible & reasonable arguments will get rid of them quicker, quiet them down or get them doing/saying extreme enough sh^t to get them banned in a bid for your attention.

[Metho_4u]

Lol, when you see a thread in NSB titled "reasonable discussion", you know it's going to be anything but.

Yes indeed... it gets awesome

[Citizen Koba]

First off GGG being legit is a ****** discussion. Of course he's legit. If you or anyone else don't think he's legit #1 in the division you are some other dudes fanboy, a GGG hater or just got dropped on your head as a baby.



You had to figure this one out? NO ONE escapes scrutiny. Everything is ALWAYS on the table & UP FOR GRABS in a competitive world like professional boxing. With how the multiple titles have destroyed the term champion I believe you can lose the "real title/#1 spot" without losing a fight today thats how much scrutiny is on guys.

For me I considered GGG the champion at 160 after Sergio made it apparent he didn't wanna fight GGG & as GGG improved the guys he fought. And I stripped Adonis Stevenson of his #1 standing with me once he kept fighting bs guy after bs guy while Kovalev was fighting superior opposition.

Since there is 4 or more "champions" & since the champions don't fight like they used to in previous multiple title generations I think this is all fair play that you can keep winning yet lose your "The Champion" standing.



This is complete & utter bs. The number 1 guy in most divisions have lil extra pressure on them. Now there are a handful of P4P tip top guys, like GGG, that have higher pressure on them to fight tip top (I say top 5 guys in a division minus mandatory situations obviously) more often since they are considered among the best guys in all of boxing. This happens all the time & was the same in the Floyd & Manny years. Manny took sh^t for David Diaz type fights. And as a big Floyd fan from childhood til now one of my biggest disappointments in Floyd's career was him ending it (the 2nd or 3rd time lol) by giving Andre f#cking Berto a title shot. Berto doesn't suck, but he wasn't a top 5 guy in the division, deserving of a title shot & stands out to me as Floyd's worst opponent in a title fight for around a decade when he fought so many name + quality guys.



If you listen to the idiots you aren't wrong. There are plenty of people who speak on boxing intelligently here. If you are engaging with the lowest dipsh^ts here who calls the #8 guy in the world a bum casually then yea that type of fan isn't likely to ever give many guys the respect they deserve.

I try to give EVERYONE who boxes a level of respect, but then again that doesn't mean I can't or won't be critical of them. This is a competitive world. If you are slacking its very possible someone else is doing more or will be doing more. #1 is a flimsy spot to be & maybe more so now with the stuff I said earlier talking about you don't even need to necessarily lose to lose the #1 spot these days since the guys who should be fighting fight so seldom like they did in past eras.



Okay now you just went to ******town. Who the f#ck was on the Wade War Wagon??????? Granted there were & are guys riding with the other guys mentioned, but I don't see how giving credit to guys on the rise takes away from a guy more proven like GGG.

Theres levels to this sh^t. And no one is saying Charlo or Derevyanchenko is on the level of GGG yet or that they can definitely be one day. Both have massive questions on themselves still & got things to prove vs GGG or other top guys. But the thing is they are in that top 5 mix of guys right now so they should be given that opportunity to succeed or fail in proving themselves vs GGG or Canelo or even other top guys.



GGG is a P4P discussed guy right now lmfao. Worse TLDR everrrrrr. Sh^t man I think most cats got GGG in the top 3 P4P.

All most of us wanna see is good fights. I don't ride or die with many mfers. I do enjoy & respect many mfers. But the reality is boxing is one of the only sports where you can compete against lower level guys in big events & I personally hate that & think it makes boxing look like & feel like a joke sport. This Cinco de Mayo date is a BIG FIGHT DATE. And to me GGG is pissing on the big fight status of this date by fighting an inactive, smaller guy, on late notice, who's never fought in this weight division. GGG needed to fight his mandatory, Derevyanchenko, who was ready to come in late just like Vanes or to push back this date for a month or several weeks to have more time to properly train for a more suitable replacement for this big fight date. Thats all I or most who side more with me than you are thinking. We don't need to see GGG with one hand tied behind his back or that other bs you brought up we just want to see him fight deserving contenders in his own weight division & not bs opponents.

[Eff Pandas]

gggee is a good fighter but his resume is nothing to write home about and its just a fact

Which fighters got the top 5 resumes at 160lbs?

[Oluminati]

as i stated most mfers can't even be bothered to give enough of a f#ck to comment on most of these dumb posts by a small minority of guys. And for the most part there are always a nice lil segment of 5-10 guys who'll make the same thread over & over & all us who know the routine just ignore them while the noobs & guys who just like to cherry pick arguments with dumb mfers will engage them & keep these dumb ass threads high on the page.

This right here^

[Eff Pandas]

I don't think there's any need to worry what fans of other sports think about fights like GGG/Martirosyan, because very few of them know who the legit top 10 are in any division. They won't have heard of Martirosyan ... and they won't have heard of Derevyenchenko or Andrade either!

So you won't hear any grumbling from casuals about why is GGG fighting this guy instead of his mando.

"Mando .. uh? Who da fukk is that guy .. Mando? Never heard of him either ..."

Fair point.

I guess I shoulda concentrated on saying it feels like a joke to me & many other hardcore fans vs the casuals or sports fans who don't got much of a filter when it comes to non-name brand guys.

[bigjavi973]

I understand the need for having world-class fights in all divisions. However, coming to this forum has truly opened my eyes to the limitless ******ity of human beings. One of the biggest discussion in the past few years have been about the legitimacy of Middleweight champion, GGG.

Through the years, I have only seen the bar moved farther away after each fight. 2017 was one of the biggest years of GGG's boxing career and it seems the the brigade of armchair warriors have also increased meanwhile. Fighting and keeping his belts against the top two contenders in MW in the same year is apparently not enough for a boxer anymore. Then the question arises, at what point can a boxer truly escape scrutiny?

The conclusion I've come to is never. The expectations are always high, even if it has no basis or connection to reality. Every top guy of the division, not just GGG alone is apparently supposed to fight 1 world class opponent after another. This delusion pretty much instantly stops itself when one realizes how rare world class fighters are. In every division, there is hardly 1-2 A class fighters. Who are these world class opponents that a champion is supposed to defend against then? Well for one, the idea of moving up the weights has been thrown around.

From a purely historical perspective, this is plain ******. Under no circumstances should a boxer move up unless he starts very low to begin with. Why? If a boxer moves up, he is expected to keep leaping weights until he is defeated and for what? Once defeated, they turn into the very same fighters who are referred to as taxi drivers and bums. This has been seen over and over again, how the armchair 'lads' with no experience in pretty much any combat sports ****s on fighters who could break their jaws with little to no effort.

As it stands, a top professional boxer can never win with the NSB crowd, which really sheds light on how much boxing discussion actually takes place here. The ****posters keep throwing in names of world beaters such as Charlos, Lara etc etc. but only until they take their first loss. Lara has seemingly hit the abyss after his last loss and looks like the fangirls have jumped to a new ship. One that of Sergiy Derevyanchenko, just like they did with the previous IBF mandatory in Trueno Johnson and Dominic Wade.

TL;DR - GGG can only become top p4p if he wins against Canelo, BJS and Derevyanchenko on the same night, 1v3, while having his arms tied. Canelo et al. can keep fighting the Spike o Sullivans, Trueno Johnson and whatever leftovers come along though.

oh please cut the crap....

he fights vs 154 lbs even kell brook who was 147 lbs

but when it came to andre ward he never wanted to move up and if he did it was 164 lbs...

thats a bit hypocritical imo and also hypocritical of his fans to defend such nonsense

[Metho_4u]

oh please cut the crap....

he fights vs 154 lbs even kell brook who was 147 lbs

but when it came to andre ward he never wanted to move up and if he did it was 164 lbs...

thats a bit hypocritical imo and also hypocritical of his fans to defend such nonsense

Are golemovkin fans t@rded?

[TonyGe]

I'd argue one of the problems with boxing is too much is acceptable as is. The quality control of the product of boxing is like some 24hr mom & pop restaurant in Iowa at 3am on a holiday.



Idk that the consensus was HE IS a world beater. Merely he's a top contender, a mandatory & a guy who's shown some promise along with he's about 3x the opponent of Vanes.

And randomly thats all most of the top guys, like GGG, who we talk about most were at one time as well, a top contender who's shown some promise. Guys like Derevyanchenko are the guys who become the next GGG. Granted they usually fall short, but that next generation of guys look like contenders with promise more than anything else before they become what they'll become.



If GGG wants to legit keep all the belts & be the one guy with the belts he should be more mindful of mandatorys.

Randomly I will say I do think GGG has "given up" for lack of a better way to put it. I think thats what his PED tirade was about. He was frustrated, he was mad, he was sick of being treated like a second class citizen in boxing despite all he's done. He was tired of being grateful. And he's tired of these belts & their bs. I think GGG got all up in his emotions for the first time in his professional boxing career & he made a bunch of poor decisions that may or may not bite him in the ass in the near or distant future. I think GGG just wants to get a few fights, a few more big paydays out of the way & he's walking off into the sunset. If Canelo is one of them great. If not thats great to, but dude is kinda done with all the politics & bs I feel like. Or at least at this moment in time. He may chill a lil more after this Vanes fight. He may chill a lil more if he's stripped of the IBF title. But I'm not entirely confident in all that.



If you think that many mfers are against GGG I think you need to learn to count. As I stated most mfers can't even be bothered to give enough of a f#ck to comment on most of these dumb posts by a small minority of guys. And for the most part there are always a nice lil segment of 5-10 guys who'll make the same thread over & over & all us who know the routine just ignore them while the noobs & guys who just like to cherry pick arguments with dumb mfers will engage them & keep these dumb ass threads high on the page.



You guys sooooooo don't get it. The more you engage & entertain the dumbest mfers here the more the standard of the forum drops cuz you are engaging these dumb mfers keeping them coming back.

Too many of you "smart" guys will make thread after thread cherry picking these ****** mfers like you are doing some public service or something by calling them out or w/e. Thats ******ed. You don't feed the stray cat unless you want it to comeback to your house.

Ignore the dipsh^ts here. And quit acting like swatting back their ****** arguments/opinions that are easily taken apart piece by piece is doing anything good for this site. You not engaging with cats who can't make sensible & reasonable arguments will get rid of them quicker, quiet them down or get them doing/saying extreme enough sh^t to get them banned in a bid for your attention.

I argue with those guys all the time. I enjoy it. It's easy to get them to freak out..Probably shouldn't do it though.