Comments Thread For: Garcia-Rios Peaked at 558K Viewers, Averaged 516K on Showtime

[IMDAZED]

I think you're exaggerating the impact of streaming on live ratings. The college football final, for example, with it's massive audience of 27 million viewers on ESPN alone only got about 1.5 million viewers more when streaming numbers were counted. Only about 5%. This is a similar proportion of traditional tv vs. streaming viewers that any important live event usually gets. Even the most optimistic estimates on Showtime's streaming viewers would indicate a decline in overall viewership.

Bad example. Of course the streaming was minimal on ESPN. Nearly anyone with a TV has ESPN. It’s not a premium channel.

[killakali]

Showtime Anytime is not included in the ratings. Sling is included in the ratings.

It has to do with whether Nielsen considers you to be watching the linear feed of the channel. When you add Showtime to Sling, Sling is considered your "cable package" and Showtime is considered a linear channel on that package, so it is counted.

When you watch on Showtime Anytime, even though Showtime Anytime added a live feed, you're watching directly through the on demand app, not your cable/satellite company, so it's not counted.

This is why HBO GO doesn't allow live fights. They want to protect the Nielsen number. HBO GO even makes you wait several days before you can watch on demand and they never upload the entire broadcast. HBO wants to make it as inconvenient as possible to watch in any way that Nielsen doesn't count.

That is why HBO's numbers are artificially high and Showtime's are artificially low. There are numerous examples of ways you can watch Showtime fights that won't be counted by Nielsen, but HBO blocks those viewing methods because they want to force you to watch in a way Nielsen measures.

how would that make HBO’s numbers artificially high when it’s the actual true numbers of who watched on their channel lol. U love to make shiet up. Showtimes aren’t artificially low. There is no way to know. I bet only the number would only go up 10% if the app was included in the ratings. You like to act like the number would be 50% higher which is comical. Look st other life sports.

What I would like to know is how much Hbo Latino viewership would add to the HBO numbers. No one ever talks about that.

[killakali]

Bad example. Of course the streaming was minimal on ESPN. Nearly anyone with a TV has ESPN. It’s not a premium channel.

Its actually a great example. It’s all about if u want to watch on a tablet or on tv. When I am in a hotel lots of times I watch on my iPad when I could watch on the hotel tv in my room.

[IMDAZED]

Its actually a great example. It’s all about if u want to watch on a tablet or on tv. When I am in a hotel lots of times I watch on my iPad when I could watch on the hotel tv in my room.

Sure, I do the same at times. Doesn’t change the necessity for a premium channel.

[N/A]

I think you're exaggerating the impact of streaming on live ratings. The college football final, for example, with it's massive audience of 27 million viewers on ESPN alone only got about 1.5 million viewers more when streaming numbers were counted. Only about 5%. This is a similar proportion of traditional tv vs. streaming viewers that any important live event usually gets. Even the most optimistic estimates on Showtime's streaming viewers would indicate a decline in overall viewership.

I've never said what I believe the impact is, so it's impossible for me to exaggerate. All I've done is point out all of the ways Showtime allows their fights to be watched even though Nielsen won't count it while pointing out all of the ways HBO blocks their fights from being watched because Nielsen won't count it. You say it's only a 5% difference, but I'm about to explain several reasons why I believe you may be underestimating the impact. But even if it's only 10% in one direction for one and 10% in the other direction for the other, you end up with enough of an impact that it should at least be considered when looking at the HBO & SHO numbers.


Okay, so here are some reasons why the impact for boxing on a premium network would be much larger than a mainstream sporting event with huge casual appeal on ESPN.

If you're out of town, at a friends house, staying with your girlfriend, etc, there's a very good chance wherever you are, they have ESPN. The numbers suggest there's a very very good chance there will be ESPN where you are.

On the other hand, there is a very good chance there WON'T be Showtime wherever you are. So if you're going out of town, to a friends house, staying with a girlfriend, etc, you'll probably need to bring a device with you, or login to your Showtime account on a device wherever you are in order to watch the fight. This is why it's so crucial that Showtime allows live streaming on their app.

But let's take it a step further. You can't subscribe to ESPN as a standalone app. You have to get it through cable or satellite. The chances of watching ESPN in a way Nielsen counts is very very high.

On the other hand, many people subscribe directly to Showtime for $8.99 with no middle man, or add Showtime on to their Amazon account, Hulu account, or a variety of other options. There is less incentive to subscribe directly through your cable or satellite, especially since you can get the live fights on the app. If you're a boxing fan, it would be ****** to subscribe directly through HBO if they block live viewing, but since Showtime allows it, there's no reason to subscribe in a way Nielsen counts.

So that is a big factor you're overlooking here.

Also, boxing is a niche sport with a hardcore dedicated fanbase. The type of person who subscribes to a premium channel for fights is very different from the type of person who tunes into one or two football games a year on ESPN when it's a huge thing everyone is watching. Those 1.5 million ESPN streamers are not the casual audience who just shows up for the national championship. So that inflated 27 million skews the percentage of those who stream. Find a game with half the ratings and the streaming doesn't cut in half.

So the type of hardcore fans more likely to stream is the same type of person more likely to subscribe to Showtime. And since you can subscribe directly to Showtime, which you can't do with ESPN, it stands to reason that a much larger percentage are watching SHO fights via app than our watching a huge major national championship game with massive casual viewership on ESPN.

[BWC]

its unfortunate to see such low numbers......not sure why PBC/AH think having 'big' names fight once a year is good for business...there is no momentum or familiarity created for casuals. If PBC wants better numbers they should book these guys to fight min. 3 times a year. DSG was coming off almost 1 year layoff and Rios has been irrelevant for years, I watch all boxing but audiences wont grow with this model.

It didn't do too badly. Respectable .19 in the demo, which is what really matters. Boxing can generate pretty good demo #s without a huge top line #. Which is why ESPN and Showtime are investing..

[Butch.McRae]

I've never said what I believe the impact is, so it's impossible for me to exaggerate. All I've done is point out all of the ways Showtime allows their fights to be watched even though Nielsen won't count it while pointing out all of the ways HBO blocks their fights from being watched because Nielsen won't count it. You say it's only a 5% difference, but I'm about to explain several reasons why I believe you may be underestimating the impact. But even if it's only 10% in one direction for one and 10% in the other direction for the other, you end up with enough of an impact that it should at least be considered when looking at the HBO & SHO numbers.


Okay, so here are some reasons why the impact for boxing on a premium network would be much larger than a mainstream sporting event with huge casual appeal on ESPN.

If you're out of town, at a friends house, staying with your girlfriend, etc, there's a very good chance wherever you are, they have ESPN. The numbers suggest there's a very very good chance there will be ESPN where you are.

On the other hand, there is a very good chance there WON'T be Showtime wherever you are. So if you're going out of town, to a friends house, staying with a girlfriend, etc, you'll probably need to bring a device with you, or login to your Showtime account on a device wherever you are in order to watch the fight. This is why it's so crucial that Showtime allows live streaming on their app.

But let's take it a step further. You can't subscribe to ESPN as a standalone app. You have to get it through cable or satellite. The chances of watching ESPN in a way Nielsen counts is very very high.

On the other hand, many people subscribe directly to Showtime for $8.99 with no middle man, or add Showtime on to their Amazon account, Hulu account, or a variety of other options. There is less incentive to subscribe directly through your cable or satellite, especially since you can get the live fights on the app. If you're a boxing fan, it would be ****** to subscribe directly through HBO if they block live viewing, but since Showtime allows it, there's no reason to subscribe in a way Nielsen counts.

So that is a big factor you're overlooking here.

Also, boxing is a niche sport with a hardcore dedicated fanbase. The type of person who subscribes to a premium channel for fights is very different from the type of person who tunes into one or two football games a year on ESPN when it's a huge thing everyone is watching. Those 1.5 million ESPN streamers are not the casual audience who just shows up for the national championship. So that inflated 27 million skews the percentage of those who stream. Find a game with half the ratings and the streaming doesn't cut in half.

So the type of hardcore fans more likely to stream is the same type of person more likely to subscribe to Showtime. And since you can subscribe directly to Showtime, which you can't do with ESPN, it stands to reason that a much larger percentage are watching SHO fights via app than our watching a huge major national championship game with massive casual viewership on ESPN.

This was a very solid breakdown. We have different opinions on Stevenson lol but I generally respect your posts. Keep it up. (I have no idea what you see in Adonis btw lol)

[killakali]

Bad example. Of course the streaming was minimal on ESPN. Nearly anyone with a TV has ESPN. It’s not a premium channel.

Its a great example. U don’t seem to get it. Just because u have the Channel doesn’t mean U choose NOT to stream it. I stream all the time even when I have the channel.

I get what you are saying though. You are saying a Gilberto Ramirez 800,000k rating really was over 2 million because it isn’t counting the people watching the fight on their app or counting the people especially is Hispanics watching on ESPN Deportes to hear it in our own language. U are saying we need to add at least one million views to all of the Espn ratings. That’s why Espn is pushing so much more content to their app. It’s growi exponentially even though people have the channel. I’m glad u cleared it up.

[N/A]

how would that make HBO’s numbers artificially high when it’s the actual true numbers of who watched on their channel

Because when people on this site try to compare HBO & SHO's Nielsen numbers, one channel is going above and beyond what anybody else does to make it extremely easy to watch without being counted by Nielsen and the other channel is going above and beyond what anybody else does to make it extremely difficult to watch without being counted by Nielsen.

So if HBO was simply in the middle on this issue, while SHO was widely on one end, the difference wouldn't be as great. But with HBO being militantly devoted to the other end of the spectrum, you wind up compounding the impact.

It's out of the ordinary for SHO to allow the live stream, but it's also out of the ordinary for HBO to make you wait three days. So you have two channels taking very extreme and opposite positions on this issue.

U love to make shiet up.

What did I make up?

Showtimes aren’t artificially low. There is no way to know.

If there's no way to know, why did you claim to know in the sentence immediately preceding you claiming there's no way to know?

And there is a way to know which services are counted by Nielsen. When I get the Nielsen numbers for a show I'm involved with, Nielsen tells us precisely which services are counted and which ones aren't. Our network partners than provide us with the streaming numbers for the services Nielsen doesn't count. I'm not involved in any shows anybody would bother to leak the Nielsen numbers for, but if they did, the public number wouldn't be anywhere close to the true number.

I bet only the number would only go up 10% if the app was included in the ratings. You like to act like the number would be 50% higher which is comical.

No, I've never acted like it's 50%. It's obviously much close to 10 than 50.

But it's also a cumulative effect. Showtime viewers know if they forget to set their DVR, there will be a replay that night on Showtime Extreme. HBO viewers know if they forget to set their DVR, they're out of luck until the next day. So it's a lot more important to remember to set your DVR for an HBO fight. All of these little things add up. HBO has trained their viewers that you better watch in a way Nielsen will count or we're going to make it as inconvenient as possible.

Showtime has trained their viewers that if you miss the live showing, no big deal, we've got your back. The full broadcast will be available on demand very quickly, unlike HBO making you wait three days and then only making portions of the broadcast available. Again, one side training viewers that you better watch in a way Nielsen counts or else we're going to make it as inconvenient as possible while the other side says, hey, watch however you want.

[Edward90]

Who thought he would draw more than Errol Spence? Errol Spence was making his first defense of his IBF world championship against the WBA world champion who vacated to take the fight.

Garcia was fighting a non-title tune up against a faded fighter who only held a title in a lower division.

Of course Spence was the bigger fight with more interest.

Hindsight is 20/20. DSG is/was regarded by many to be the biggest draw of the division. These numbers give an argument to the contrary. Either way, it isn't that deep for me. DSG cannot use his draw as an excuse for not fighting Spence though. If he doesn't want that work, money isn't a valid reason...