Comments Thread For: Where Does Roy Jones Belong On The List Of Greatest Boxers?

[robertzimmerman]

"Once ya get knocked out, the rest of losses DONT COUNT."











Smh.

Delusional.

They count, but they have to be put into context.

Mike Tyson's losses to Williams and McBride aren't factored into his all time ranking.

Who would give those losses serious thought when compiling a list of the best HW's of time?

[A-Wolf]

That's an exaggeration, but we're almost on the same page regarding someone's mindset/confidence. But you simply have to factor in Roy's age and the number of fights he had. Unless he'd have adapted his style, that knockout loss was always coming against a top ranked LHW at some stage. It wasn't just his confidence. It was his diminished reflexes, which led to him being hit by shots that he could have reacted to when he was younger.

Look at the confidence he had against Lacy. He was sharp and he was enjoying himself. He then went to Australia to fight Green. Go and look at the right hand Green hit him with. The 90's version of Roy would have seen that before Green had even thrown it.

It's not that simple.

Roy's whole style was based upon split second timing due to his incredible athleticism.

Again, unless he'd have adapted, it was inevitable that the shots that once just missed him, were eventually going to land.

Look at this gif from the Reggie Johnson fight:

https://imgur.com/gallery/dkADuyL

How long could he have fought in that manner?

Right, so he also had physical issues along with psychological ones.

Yeah. We're basically on the same page. Feel free to make your own ratio.

Mine is 90-10.

But since you want to keep chirping semantics --- So Bernard Hopkins can start physically peaking or maintain his peak past 36, 37 and well beyond and still school guys in their 20's. Floyd Mayweather can do basically the same - but Roy is instantly a shell of his former self at 35 (because he was once formerly a human cobra a few years younger) - even though Emanuel Steward commented that he saw no physical decline in Roy minutes before Tarver KO'd him... Ok. Ok. No. Sorry. I'll stick with my 90-10. I've thought about this plenty.

Go ahead and explain that Bernard's style was this and Floyd's style was that and Roy's style was this.. Blah, blah, blah..

It was the KNOCKOUTS. No need for GIF's. I've watched every single Roy Jones fight on DVD multiple times over a decade ago and since.

90-10, thanks.

[A-Wolf]

Right, so he also had physical issues along with psychological ones.

You're attributing "physical issues" to Glen Johnson putting him out for a long nap? What issues?

[robertzimmerman]

Yeah. We're basically on the same page. Feel free to make your own ratio.

Mine is 90-10.

But since you want to keep chirping semantics --- So Bernard Hopkins can start physically peaking or maintain his peak past 36, 37 and well beyond and still school guys in their 20's. Floyd Mayweather can do basically the same - but Roy is instantly a shell of his former self at 35 (because he was once formerly a human cobra a few years younger) - even though Emanuel Steward commented that he saw no physical decline in Roy minutes before Tarver KO'd him... Ok. Ok. No. Sorry. I'll stick with my 90-10. I've thought about this plenty.

Go ahead and explain that Bernard's style was this and Floyd's style was that and Roy's style was this.. Blah, blah, blah..

It was the KNOCKOUTS. No need for GIF's. I've watched every single Roy Jones fight on DVD multiple times over a decade ago and since.

90-10, thanks.

Your ratio is unbalanced.

With regards to Floyd and Bernard, like you've already alluded to, their styles weren't based around their athleticism like Roy's was.

In his prime, Roy could jump in with lead shots and then pull back with cat like reflexes. But he couldn't do that in his late 30's and beyond.

Yes, Manny said he saw no physical decline. But in what, 3 mins? I started to see little subtle things before he fought Ruiz, and many other people did too. If you watch his SMW fights and his early LHW fights, you can see the difference in his shot selection and his feet.

You seem a smart guy, so I can't see why you're being so ignorant on this matter. It was a culmination of the 2 things.

Are you saying that had he have not ran into Tarver and Johnson, he could have reigned for a lot longer?

[robertzimmerman]

You're attributing "physical issues" to Glen Johnson putting him out for a long nap? What issues?

1. He couldn't avoid the punch.

2. It didn't look particularly hard, which is why I think that the weight loss combined with Tarver's knockout, affected his punch resistance.

He took hard right hands from Toney and Ruiz which didn't seem to faze him.

[A-Wolf]

Your ratio is unbalanced.

With regards to Floyd and Bernard, like you've already alluded to, their styles weren't based around their athleticism like Roy's was.

In his prime, Roy could jump in with lead shots and then pull back with cat like reflexes. But he couldn't do that in his late 30's and beyond.

Yes, Manny said he saw no physical decline. But in what, 3 mins? I started to see little subtle things before he fought Ruiz, and many other people did too. If you watch his SMW fights and his early LHW fights, you can see the difference in his shot selection and his feet.

You seem a smart guy, so I can't see why you're being so ignorant on this matter. It was a culmination of the 2 things.

Are you saying that had he have not ran into Tarver and Johnson, he could have reigned for a lot longer?

1. He couldn't avoid the punch.

2. It didn't look particularly hard, which is why I think that the weight loss combined with Tarver's knockout, affected his punch resistance.

He took hard right hands from Toney and Ruiz which didn't seem to faze him.

We're not going to agree.

You seem to want to favor the argument that it was equally if not mostly physical decline and I'm dead-set that it was far and away the psychological crash. I'll trust Emanuel Steward and my own eyes over you, no disrespect.

[A-Wolf]

Your ratio is unbalanced.

With regards to Floyd and Bernard, like you've already alluded to, their styles weren't based around their athleticism like Roy's was.

In his prime, Roy could jump in with lead shots and then pull back with cat like reflexes. But he couldn't do that in his late 30's and beyond.

Yes, Manny said he saw no physical decline. But in what, 3 mins? I started to see little subtle things before he fought Ruiz, and many other people did too. If you watch his SMW fights and his early LHW fights, you can see the difference in his shot selection and his feet.

You seem a smart guy, so I can't see why you're being so ignorant on this matter. It was a culmination of the 2 things.

Are you saying that had he have not ran into Tarver and Johnson, he could have reigned for a lot longer?

Oh, and that right there is kind of a "duh" statement.. I mean yeah, obviously. He wasn't 22 anymore. There's going to be some difference. But did physical decline cause Roy to end up with 5 knockout losses and a record of 18-8 post Tarver?? **** no! That's ridiculous.

[stealthradon]

It's: HEAD TO HEAD.

Are you telling me that because Roy only had 6 fights at SMW, that it would be foolish for anybody to rank him in the top 10 SMW's of all time?

The same thing applies to MW.

He's not rated highly based on his thin resume, he's rated on his ABILITY.

Do yo understand?

Did you watch his career unfold?

He had the same attributes across 4 weight classes, from 92-02.

Are you going to tell people that they couldn't favour Roy over the likes of La Motta etc at MW, on the basis that he only fought a few named fighters there?

Are you serious?

You can go on the 'eye test'

Yes, if GG moved up to SMW and dominated very good-great fighters there, as well as dominating guys at an even higher weight class, people could rightly class him as a great SMW based on a H2H basis. Roy moved up and beat Toney with absolute ease. Malinga if you count the C-W. He then beat a decent guy like Lucas after playing basket ball. His overall resume at SMW is thin. But go and ask people to list their best SMW's of all time. I think he was just about unbeatable at the weight. And I don't care that a guy like Joe Calzaghe had 44 fights there. In my honest opinion, Roy was a better SMW and he's the greatest SMW of time on a H2H basis.

Here are the A level fighters RJJ fought at SMW:
Toney.
The end.
And let's not pretend that Toney had many good fights until that point.
Malinga hadn't won shít in years.
Byrd? No.
Pazienza?

It's not that impressive.
I think GGG's ability is better than RJJ.

[robertzimmerman]

We're not going to agree.

You seem to want to favor the argument that it was equally if not mostly physical decline and I'm dead-set that it was far and away the psychological crash. I'll trust Emanuel Steward and my own eyes over you, no disrespect.

It was obviously a culmination of the 2 things.

I don't know why you're putting up such a fight and digging your heels in.

It can't be a 90-10 ratio. Look at it logically. Two fighters fighting each other in a ring.

You can take on board what Manny said. I have huge respect for him. But it's common knowledge that Roy's unorthadox style was built around his incredible athleticism. His whole style was built around cat like reflexes and split second timing.

It's as though you're implying that he would have beaten the likes of Calzaghe etc, had Tarver and Johnson not beaten him. Which to me is nonsense. He was supremely confident against Tito who hadn't fought for 3 years. He was back in the spotlight, telling everyone how he was back to his best after his body had readjusted. Well go and watch the fight. He'd still got the hand speed, but his legs weren't there.

Again, go and watch the Lacy fight. He oozed confidence in that fight, where he spoke to the crowd during the fight. He had a great time, showing off to Danny Green who was in the audience, performing his 'kangaroo punch' etc. He went to Australia and he was treated like a huge celebrity. He went over there full of confidence, looking ahead to try and add a CW belt, which would have made him the first fighter in history to win every belt from MW-HW. What happened? He couldn't react to Green's telegraphed right hand.

Again, im in full agreement with you regarding the incredible importance that psychology plays in the outcome of the fight. But it's just ignorant to ignore the fact that as Roy aged, his reflexes diminished, which led to him getting caught with shots in his 30's and 40's, which he'd have avoided in his 20's.

Mackie Shilstone is one of the most respected sports scientists and strategists in the world. He's worked with hundreds of athletes, including NFL stars, tennis stars, Baseball stars, as well as many fighters including: Roy, Bernard Hopkins, Rid**** Bowe and Michael Spinks. He helped Roy to prepare for his fight against John Ruiz. After Roy's losses to Tarver and Johnson, he spoke out regarding the dangers of losing muscle quickly at an advanced age. He told various reporters that he tried to talk Roy out of it, as it can have a damaging affect on a fighters punch resistance etc.

Mackie also helped Bernard Hopkins prepare for Antonio Tarver. And when he was asked for his prediction, he said that due to the weight loss that Tarver had gone through since his role in 'Rocky Balboa' he expected him to be flat. And Tarver said that during the fight that he was completely devoid of energy.

Chris Byrd also dropped back from LHW, after facing huge punchers at HW. Yet he got folded in half by a B/C class fighter in Shaun George.

Chad Dawson also looked terrible against Andre Ward. His trainer 'Iceman' John Scully, is a member of this forum. He's given an honest account of the nightmare that they had in camp trying to drop weight and burn muscle. Dawson never looked the same afterwards. He too said he was devoid of energy. His punch resistance also appeared to be greatly affected.

Roy was an ageing fighter. He was 35 years old, he'd fought 50 fights, and he'd put his body through an awful lot.

I think it's very ignorant of you to believe that Roy could have just carried on doing what he'd always done, had he not have been caught by Tarver. Again, his downfall was obviously a culmination of a lack of confidence along with his physical decline.

[robertzimmerman]

Oh, and that right there is kind of a "duh" statement.. I mean yeah, obviously. He wasn't 22 anymore. There's going to be some difference. But did physical decline cause Roy to end up with 5 knockout losses and a record of 18-8 post Tarver?? **** no! That's ridiculous.

Ha!

This is just madness.

YES, of course his physical decline contributed to him suffering 5 knockout losses.

You can't be serious.

Again, he didn't just get knocked out because of a loss of confidence. He got knocked out because he COULD'T avoid the punches, due to diminished reflexes. Roy's whole style was based upon split second timing. How do you not know this? Those guys would never have knocked him out in his prime, because they'd never have been fast enough to have caught him.

You're talking about a guy who barely lost rounds in his prime, to getting knocked out by Green and Lebedev etc.

Have a word with yourself.

Again, it's common knowledge that Roy's style was based upon his incredible athleticism. Once that was taken away, he was a sitting duck at the highest level. Which is why he either needed to retire early, or adapt to compensate for his age.