Why does Andre Ward have lower number of wins by knockouts stoppages compared to GGG?

[buddyr]

Alexander Brand, Miranda, Rodriguez and Buchanan aren't 'better comp' than Martin Murray, Rubio, Kell Brook, Nobuhiro Ishida and so forth so on.

but Dawson, Kovalev(2), Froch, Abraham, and Kessler are. Miranda was a DANGEROUS puncher. Abraham beat Murray and Miranda only had 1 loss when he fought Ward. Now Miranda wasn't some world class fighter, but neither are any of the guys you named either. Froch, kessler, and Kovalev beats the holy hell out of anyone GGG has fought.

[garfios]

What I wanted to mainly know was what the cause is for Ward having lesser wins by knockouts / stoppages compared to Gennady Golovkin against similar level of opposition. I wanted to know how much of it had to do with punching power, offensive skills and / or other attributes.

Also, before anyone mentions Andre Ward's stoppage win over Kovalev, that fight was stopped after Ward landed a clear low blow. So that wasn't a 'legitimate' stoppage. I'm only seeking for a discussion about legitimate stoppages / knockouts.

Or just maybe he has faced better opposition than ggg...

[aboutfkntime]

I agree with you except ward having better power that's all lemmyy has lol but he should not be talked about in same sentence as ward.but he was better puncher I think.and I agree bjs beats him and he aint in wards class either by a mile

Ward is a far better puncher than Lemieux

he could literally beat Lemieux with his left hand, like he did Kovalev in their 1st fight..... his sense of ringIQ/timing, combined with good speed, make that left hand lethal in boxing terms

the point is, he is a much better fighter, so is much more likely to land something effective, and land it well..... like in the second fight against Kovalev

when Lemmy can do that to a A-level fighter, I'll see it different

" power " is often over-rated as hell

[HarvardBlue]

You're not in a position to command me about what I should be doing or not be doing. Nor are you in a position to command me about how I should or shouldn't be posting my comments. Perhaps you should be watching strictly come dancing or gymnastics instead of boxing?

David Lemieux has very good technique, mechanics and form when he punches. If that is considered to be 'swings like a caveman', then so be it! I'd be happy to be in that category too. I'd certainly choose that over being a slapper / tapper.

How exactly does Golovkin have bad defense? Or is it one of those many false narratives that you've been brainwashed into believing? Golovkin has tremendous defense when he doesn't want to be hit or when he decides to not take that much risks.

As for Ward vs Kovalev, that's one fight out of many. You do understand that using one fight is a very small sample to go by when attempting to infer something. Yes, if Ward fights Kovalev or other elite opposition 10 times, he may get the odd single or two knockouts. Does that mean he is genuinely a good knockout artist or a better offensive boxer than someone who consistently stops their opponent? Absolutely not! This is simple logic! it also called the laws of averages! When someone does something enough times, they are bound to accomplish something that is against the odds.

Likewise, if David Lemieux fights Golovkin 10 or 20 times, he is bound to stop Golovkin at least once.

Same applies to Ward's right hand on Kovalev. That was one, rare punch thrown and landed with good technique. Doesn't change the fact that it is a very rare one. Doesn't change the fact that most of the time, he still remains a slapper / tapper with poor power punching technique.

If you're going to claim that Ward has better offensive skills than Lemieux, I might as well claim that Lemieux has better defensive skills than Ward.

Calm down dude, no one is commanding you. Are you sure you're up for this debate? Anyway, the Kovalev fight was just one example. You can pick any of his fights and see how good his offense skills is. Lemieux is a very basic fighter. He throws everything at a 100%. His defense is horrendous and his offense is very predictable. That's why Golovkin had no issues avoiding his punches. And yes Golovkin's defense is not good. It's not David Lemieux bad but it's a liability. Keep living in Golovkin's fantasy unstoppable monster world if you don't believe me. Ward knows how to vary his attack so it's harder to time him. He takes a little off his punches to conserve energy and also mix up his attacks. Those are offensive skills. Again, if you're so infatuated with KOs, there are plenty in the MMA. You obviously having a hard time distinguishing between boxing skills and shiny, flashy KOs.

[aboutfkntime]

David Lemieux is a more powerful puncher at 160 pounds than Andre Ward was at 168 or 175 pounds. That is a fact, proven by actual stats / numbers.

nope, because that cannot be proven with stats numbers

not without a level playing-field

which means that you would have to miraculously upgrade a lot of Lemmy's opponents to match the level of the guys that Ward has faced/stopped

like I asked earlier..... re: Ward/Golovkin..... who has KO'd more world-class opponents?

re: Ward/Lemieux..... who has KO'd more world-class opponents?

and YEP, level makes a HUGE difference, nobody can argue that fact

If Ward was a better offensive boxer with better offensive skills than Lemieux, he would have stopped more opponents, dropped more opponents, damaged more opponents and so forth so on. Therefore, the evidence doesn't suggest that Ward is better than Lemieux in this particular department.

Ward is a far better fighter, so he is much more likely to land something effective, and land it well..... making him a better puncher

I see what you mean..... but that is kinda like saying..... if you closed your eyes, and put your hands behind your back, and let each of those guys throw a punch, who would hurt you the most..... but who really cares about those kind of comparisons, that tough guy stuff is not relevant to boxing

Ward is better fighter, better puncher, everything..... just his world-class timing alone makes him more effective

[aboutfkntime]

Alexander Brand, Miranda, Rodriguez and Buchanan aren't 'better comp' than Martin Murray, Rubio, Kell Brook, Nobuhiro Ishida and so forth so on.

hahaha

no

but Miranda Kessler Bika Abraham Froch Dawson Barrera Kovalev..... are way better than Nunez Fuchigami Ishida Adama Monroe Wade..... right?

don't compare resume's, seriously

also, Ward only has 1 *, which he avenged..... GGG has 2

[Cutthroat]

Darnell Boone with a knockout percentage of 24% dropped Andre Ward. So what was your point again? If Boone with such a low knockout percentage could drop Andre Ward, then the odds are, David Lemieux and Daniel Jacobs with much higher knockout percentages have a higher chance to drop / stop Andre Ward than vice versa.

Anybody can cherry pick stats to suit their agenda.Particularly rare, one time feat. This is why, using a small sample size of anything is not enough to form a solid conclusion.

Nobuhiro Ishida has never been stopped either. Since or after fighting GGG. GGG was the only one to KO Ishida. Ishida went toe to toe with someone (Dmitry Pirog) who has a much higher knockout percentage (Pirog;s KO percentage is 75%) than Badou Jack (who's KO percentage is merely 51%). Despite that, GGG managed to not only KO, but brutalize Ishida whilst Ward failed to even come close to stopping Brand. So how do any of those points prove that Brand is a better boxer than Ishida? Also, if you think someone with a 51% KO percentage is a 'huge puncher', then your standards for what a huge puncher should be is very low.

Again, you still haven't explained how anything the likes of Miranda and Rodriguez have done, make them better boxers than the likes of Martin Murray, Ishida, Rubio, Lemieux and so forth so on. How do any of those points you've mentioned in relation to those opponents of Ward's, prove that they are better boxers than the aforementioned opponents of GGG?

Ward wasn't even a full year pro when he fought Boone in 2005. Why you cherry picking?


Lemieux fought Rios in 2016.
Jacobs got dropped by Mora in 2015.
Both men are in their primes. That's the difference.

Jack is a SMW/LHW. They hit significantly harder than MW's. Having a 70% KO ratio at 160 does not mean you hit as hard as a guy that has a 70% KO ratio 1 division higher.

Canelo has a 65% KO ratio and couldn't stop Zombie Chavez at 164 but you know who could? Fonfara with his 49% KO ratio at 171.

Middleweights almost never carry their power, they lose all their physical advantages when they move up. Abraham didn't carry his power, Miranda didn't, Green didn't, etc.

Miranda is on par with Jacobs, he would never get KO'd by Alcine or Rubio. Same with Rodriguez and Brand, all on par with Daniel Jacobs.

[billeau2]

I have no idea what point you're trying to make with that example.

The point that the other user raised about Rios is just as silly (or rather as appropriate) as me raising the point about Darnell Boone.

I am comparing their knockout ability = an ability. The point of this thread is to ascertain how much of the difference in their KO percentage is due to punching power and offensive skills.

You really can't see the problem with your logic here?

Here lets use sets and elements to illustrate;

KO related to offensive skill as
KO skills are a member of this set {offensive skills} so we may have a set of Offensive skills {KO, outpointing an opponent, dominating an opponent with combos, etc}

the converse the opposite is not a set: {KOing an opponent} which might consist of {technical KO, KO, Stoppage, etc} Offensive skills is not an element of this set. That is simply illogical it is like the following converse:


black birds with one wing are part of the set of black birds...
birds with one wing are not part of the set of Black Birds by nature of having one wing. Because its logical to say all black birds, including one winged ones can be a black birds but there is nothing about "Blackness" that makes one winged birds automatically part of the set.

So to make KOing an opponent part of a set of Offensive skills you then proceed to logically hypophocate a negative: "well a fighter should KO an opponent to show offensive skill". You see how what you are doing is fundamentally illogical? My last attempt here lol. Again I can say Catfish Hunter was a great pitcher and so was Nolan Ryan... I can even say one guy was better than the other but I cannot say that because Ryan has more strikeouts he is a better pitcher than Hunter!

[john l]

Ward is a far better puncher than Lemieux

he could literally beat Lemieux with his left hand, like he did Kovalev in their 1st fight..... his sense of ringIQ/timing, combined with good speed, make that left hand lethal in boxing terms

the point is, he is a much better fighter, so is much more likely to land something effective, and land it well..... like in the second fight against Kovalev

when Lemmy can do that to a A-level fighter, I'll see it different

" power " is often over-rated as hell

I agree with everthing u said in post[and a lot of others u have posted] but I still think lemmyy has better power.but oh well it would not help him with ward. I think we both agree with that

[Mr Objecitivity]

nope, because that cannot be proven with stats numbers

not without a level playing-field

which means that you would have to miraculously upgrade a lot of Lemmy's opponents to match the level of the guys that Ward has faced/stopped

like I asked earlier..... re: Ward/Golovkin..... who has KO'd more world-class opponents?

re: Ward/Lemieux..... who has KO'd more world-class opponents?

and YEP, level makes a HUGE difference, nobody can argue that fact





Ward is a far better fighter, so he is much more likely to land something effective, and land it well..... making him a better puncher

I see what you mean..... but that is kinda like saying..... if you closed your eyes, and put your hands behind your back, and let each of those guys throw a punch, who would hurt you the most..... but who really cares about those kind of comparisons, that tough guy stuff is not relevant to boxing

Ward is better fighter, better puncher, everything..... just his world-class timing alone makes him more effective

Pretty much everything you wrote are subjective / unsubstantiated / irrelevant / speculative claims. Ultimately, what matters are facts and facts are results and results are shown by records and records tell us what we need to know in order to infer what we need to infer.

Records show that David Lemieux has knocked out more opponents and has a higher knockout percentage at 160 pounds than Andre Ward has at 168 and 175 pounds. Ergo, he has better offensive skills at 160 pounds than Andre Ward at 168 and 175 pounds.

Offensive skills = the ability to land the most effective punches on the opponent. The most effective punches = punches that knock the opponent out / stop the opponent.