Who has a better resume, Sugar Ray Leonard or Floyd Mayweather?

[robertzimmerman]

You point out lists that have Sugar Ray Leonard ahead of Floyd but don't cite any sources. At least I cited a source that had Floyd ahead of Ray. And we aren't talking about the guys who went went 87-0 in this thread, we are directly comparing Floyd and Ray so mentioning Ray Robinson etc is irrelevant to this thread because we are only talking about these two guys.

And it's difficult to compare eras because Leonard fought in the 15 round era. If there were 12 rounds back then Leonard would have lost to Hearns the first time around and he really lost the rematch. And as for Floyd fighting past their prime legends, the same could be said for Leonard's win over Hagler, Hagler was past it and Leonard still only got a split decision in a fight many thought he lost.

You're right about one thing, it is comparing apples and oranges. Floyd has the better win streak, better longevity and more title fight wins while Leonard might have the better names on his resume. It's all about what you prefer.
But if we are talking about pound for pound, I think the guy who was able to undefeated in 5 weight classes is better than the guy who could not go undefeated in his first weight class.

You've made some good points, but your last paragraph is just silly.

Again: those are just stats.

If you're looking at who's the best on a P4P basis, you're analysing their complete skill sets.

Ray Robinson is considered by many as the G.O.A.T. despite him having 19 losses on his resume.

[robertzimmerman]

De La Hoya, Pacquiao, Cotto, Canelo, Marquez, and Mosley were all champions who are probably all going to end up in the hall of fame. And yeah some of them were past their best but so was Hagler and you could argue that welterweight was not Durans best weight class so he wasn't exactly at his best at that weight.

None of those guys who Floyd fought were at their best, and yes, Marvin was faded, but so was Ray.

[robertzimmerman]

Floyd has an over ALL better class except for the 3 ATGs on Rays ledger, if you take Duran Hearns Hagler away Floyd slaughters him .

It's easy to say: "if you were to take those guys away"

It's: quality vs quantity.

[djtmal]

Benitez was a monster, and one of the slickest fighters of all time.

The guy just had this instinctive ability to make you miss by millimeters all night long.

Has wins over Duran, Carlos Palomino (HOFer), and razor thin MD loss to Hearns.



He was a great fighter. Easily better than anyone Floyd beat at the time that Leonard fought him.

Benitez was one of my favorites.
Sugar Ray, beat Benitez, for the lineal ww title. Floyd Mayweather, beat Carlos Baldomir, for the lineal ww title. I don't think, anyone would put Benitez and Baldomir, in the same category.

[djtmal]

None of those guys who Floyd fought were at their best, and yes, Marvin was faded, but so was Ray.

Hagler was in some wars with Hearns, and Mugabi, past prime, but was never stopped or even close to being beat badly prior to fighting Sugar Ray, and Sugar Ray was a huge underdog, in their fight. Sugar Ray had far less mileage and Sugar Ray, may have just been hitting 30 yrs. old, at the time of the Hagler fight, but Hagler was 32 (34 by some accounts) with about 60 some odd fights, had high mileage.

With Floyd, Cotto had been stopped 2X, Pacquaio had been knocked out cold, Oscar had been stopped by Hopkins. Hatton and Corrales were undefeated, but not atg greats by any stretch, and I wouldn't consider Alvarez an all-time great at this point.

[robertzimmerman]

Hagler was in some wars with Hearns, and Mugabi, past prime, but was never stopped or even close to being beat badly prior to fighting Sugar Ray, and Sugar Ray was a huge underdog, in their fight. Sugar Ray had far less mileage and Sugar Ray, may have just been hitting 30 yrs. old, at the time of the Hagler fight, but Hagler was 32 (34 by some accounts) with about 60 some odd fights, had high mileage.

With Floyd, Cotto had been stopped 2X, Pacquaio had been knocked out cold, Oscar had been stopped by Hopkins. Hatton and Corrales were undefeated, but not atg greats by any stretch, and I wouldn't consider Alvarez an all-time great at this point.

Good post.

I think Ray definitely had less mileage than Marvin, but he'd been out for 3 years, and he'd never fought at MW before. Ray's peak was obviously at WW, in the early 80's.

The way some people talk, they'd have you believing that Marvin was washed up and Ray was at his best.

[MurkaMan]

Lol...the jury is still out on weather Floyd is "waaaay better" than Sugar Ray, especially when last I checked Sugar Ray ranks far higher than Floyd on most all time great lists, and really, who did Floyd fight or beat that even supports that.

Man the best pureboxer Floyd faced in this era is Zab Judah, and nobody would ever mention Zab and Sugar Ray, Hearns, Marvelous, Duran, even Benitez, in the same sentence.

Dude, at lightweight, super lightweight, and junior welterweight, you can make a strong case that Pretty Boy Floyd is the greatest pureboxer ever. I will give you that. Him and Pernell Whitaker have to sort that out.

But at welterweight, a featherfisted/safetyfirst, pureboxer like Floyd "Money" Mayweather, who by your own admission is outsized on a regular basis, would be facing some offensive firepower from higher ranking all time greats at welterweight who could really throw down and would walk Floyd down. Guys like Sugar, they don't even exist in this era of welterweights, and the guys from this era that could have gave us some indication on how great Floyd really was @ welterweight, he didn't fight or there was some excuse. You know like a more prime Cotto, who was a bull, 2009 Pacquaio had put it all together, handspeed, power, southpaw and was stopping welterweights, a less shopworn Shane, hands of stone Margarito was a relentless pressure fighter, that long, lanky guy Paul Williams could really box and would have posed a stylistic nightmare for Floyd. Even Amir Khan, a fighter who won a public poll for a Floyd fight (Floyd fought Maidana, a tailor made fighter instead), Khan, chinny, but had speed, could really box, would have posed a stylistic challenge for Floyd. Some of those guys "Money" Mayweather waited out for financial reasons, but the fights were damn near on the brink of past due date, and some of those fights were just not made (no excuses please).

You talk about all the flaws of a Sugar Ray, but what you cats fail to realize is when you are fighting prime equal opposition and win, that is the ultimate measuring stick. Sugar Ray, outsmarted guys, outgutted guys. Look what he did to Floyd Sr., who was featherfisted at welterweight just like Floyd Jr., but had real good handspeed and defense, and a natural welterweight, bigger than Floyd Jr. I know we laugh at Floyd Sr. now, but Floyd Sr. was a real tough dude. Sugar Ray, methodically broke Floyd Sr. down, by opening up the holes in his defense with bodyshots, and next thing you know, got him out of there. Floyd, was used to hitting guys, and hot getting hit back, but what happens when a guy like Sugar Ray, is fast enough to counter him back. We never saw that, and Floyd made sure we didn't.

Man, if Shane, Corley, Maidana, Oscar, could stun Floyd with a shot, you think Sugar Ray, one of the all-time great finishers, really had a killer instinct couldn't do the same with the same regularity that he did with his pops and get him out of there? I say yes, and so do a lot of other cats.

Read my other comments. The Jury is long gone fam Lol

SRL has bigger names and legends on his resume. For that reason his resume is allot glossier than Floyds. But look at the circumstantial disadvantages of Floyd's resume. He is 15lbs smaller than 80% of his opponents.

Doesnt have the power to hurt them. Was at a great age disadvantage against some of the biggest men he faced.

He shouldnt have even been able to win. But not only did he win, he flatout humiliated them on PURE SKILLS. Lets place SRL at the same disadvantages, he would get killed in the ring. Imagine a 37yrs old SRL, facing a guy who is 22yrs old and 15lbs bigger. Some of these fights wouldnt even be sanctioned.

I think Floyd is BY FAR, LIGHTYEARS, greater and better than SRL. And Imagine Floyd being the same size as SRL, He would humiliate and KO every single person SRL struggled with.

As far as Floyd and Zab, dude Ray Robinson lost to Lommatta who is an AWFUL fighter. SRL lost to a lightweight in Duran, and look at the size disadvantage Lol

I dont go in on them for losing to fighters they should dominate, because its hard to be consistant. You have off days. But you ignore that at a LATER age, Floyd has faced fighters far more dangerous than Zab, and put on a show.

And you talking about SRL, the GREATEST CHERRYPICKER in the history of the sport? Lol the same man who refused to fight anyone, unless he saw a weakness? The man who fought everyone at the right time? Lol

When Floyd was a young fighter, everyone said he was the next SRL, and they projected everything SRL did, onto Floyd. Floyd was crucified for all the ducking and cherrypicking SRL did Lol

In fact, imagine Floyd accusing Cotto and Margarita of taking roids! Floyd looked at Pacman like something he never seen before in his life. Cotto was a great fighter, but Floyd didnt look at him like "Man I never seen anything like this in my life"

Floyd made all that money, and retired to go and spend some of it. But since SRL's scary azz used to retire to duck Hagler, they placed that false trash onto Floyd. Floyd came back at a LATER age, and faced men at greater size, and speed, when he was past prime.

SRL wants you to be old and at your worse when he faces you. He said he knew Duran would gain all that weight so he faced him right away. And he used to have all of his rematches when the opponents had aged.

While, with the exception of Pacman, Floyd doesnt care if your old, small, young, giant, he is going to WHITEWASH YOU no matter what.

In fact, I cant imagine SRL being at the same disadvantages as Floyd and even FACING the opponents Floyd did. SRL wouldnt even fight them.

And did you say Khan? HAHAHAHA!!! You lying fool. The reason Khan didnt get to fight Floyd(no excuses) is because like ALL of Floyd's opponents, Madaina had come off a great win over Broner who was a major star on the rise.

Whats the point of LYING when you know all of this? You all lied and said Marcos was a cherrypick, when the fact is, Floyd didnt have to cherrypick Marcos. He is just another opponent, same as Khan. But Floyd traditionally does the SAME THING for every opponent, minus Berto.

All the young fighters fight to the top of the rank, and whoever has the most standout victory gets Mayweather.

Talking about a poll. It was actually COMMENDABLE, that despite Khan winning a poll, Floyd gave the fight to a more deserving fighter. Yet you lied like "Aww he did WRONG by not facing Khan" Khan fought Collazo Lol

And SRL fought a ONE HANDED Floyd SR, who is NOT HALF THE FIGHTER JR is, and even though you understand this, you misportraited him as Better and Bigger than Floyd Lol I look at that fight, and imagine how humiliatingly one sided a fight between SRL and Floyd would be. SRL did nothing against a bummy Floyd SR, that told either of us, that he can even edge out a victory against JR. SRL can be as fast as he wants. IDGAF about speed.

And you talk about Shane, and Corley and whoever else, stunning Floyd. You fool, you just named a bunch of men who LOST To Floyd Lol

SRL would ABSOLUTELY NOT land frequently on Mayweather. His best chances or in the first round, and after that, Floyd has him bodyscanned and know all of the angles his punches would come from. And because of how easy it is to hit SRL, It would be another Floyd show.

SRL is an outdated fighter, that has not done enough to be compared to Floyd, Who made allot of mistakes Floyd DIDNT, he didnt dedicate himself to the sport like Floyd did, and its an INSULT to compare him to Floyd.

No ww in history will knock Floyd. Based on simple facts, 100 out of 100 times, Floyd is factually invinceable. Only way he can lose, is if you go one weight class above his highest weight class, and you can probably find millions of 154lbers and 160lbers who can beat him on size and force (a technicality)

SRL's tall, skinny, and mentally weak behind cannot beat or be competitive with Floyd. Mismatch!

[MurkaMan]

None of those guys who Floyd fought were at their best, and yes, Marvin was faded, but so was Ray.

You lying Fool, it was FLOYD who was disadvantaged. Not them.

He was old as dirt, and half their size and twice their age. Pathetic liar you are Lol

[djtmal]

Good post.

I think Ray definitely had less mileage than Marvin, but he'd been out for 3 years, and he'd never fought at MW before. Ray's peak was obviously at WW, in the early 80's.

The way some people talk, they'd have you believing that Marvin was washed up and Ray was at his best.

Exactly, and I was not the biggest Sugar Ray fan by any stretch, but he earned my respect and Marvin Hagler, is my favorite fighter, that 117-111 card for Sugar Ray was highly questionable, but man Hagler made some costly mistakes in underestimating Sugar Ray, by boxing orthodox the first three or four rounds. He made it too close of a fight, couldn't make up enough ground and lost on the cards. Sugar Ray, fought a masterful fight, made Hagler miss, threw some nice combinations, even sat down with Marvelous in the 9th round.

Sugar Ray, Hagler, Hearns, Duran. Especially Sugar Ray, because when the smoke cleared, he was the last man left standing.
These guys are the measuring sticks. This era of fighters and future eras, if anybody, is going to lay claim to being the best ever. You better realize that your resume, will be analyzed from top to bottom, from unbiased cats, who actually lived boxing in the 70's and 80's, watched Wide World Of Sports, went to the closed circuit televised events, and actually recognized the significance of these events. A welterweight title fight, or any closed circuit title fight, was two guys who were at their peak, getting down for lineal supremacy, and the winner was the MAN and can trace the lineage back to the bare knuckle days. No take this test. No excuses for why legacy or lineage fights can't be made. Not this watered down stuff of today, where the top ten contenders, 5 of 'em are beltholders, and none of 'em fight each other. These days you got #5 and 6 contenders, ducking each other, trying to build up a fight. LOL.

[djtmal]

Read my other comments. The Jury is long gone fam Lol

Ok I am going to address some of mess, because most of it, as with most of you Floyd boys, is based on mostly excuses, and speculation, and son, this is the real world:

SRL has bigger names and legends on his resume. For that reason his resume is allot glossier than Floyds. But look at the circumstantial disadvantages of Floyd's resume. He is 15lbs smaller than 80% of his opponents.

Circumstanstial disadvantage? Give me a break. (Excuse)
See what you want to do here is gloss over the names on Srl's resume, but in actuality you could never gloss over Hearns, Duran, Hagler, and Benitez to make Floyd look better. And by your account, I guess Floyd, beating a 15lbs bigger Ortiz, is a greater accomplishment, than Sugar Ray beating Benitez or Hearns, two equally sized, equally skilled fighters. First ballot Hall of Famers and one all-time great. Next


He shouldnt have even been able to win. But not only did he win, he flatout humiliated them on PURE SKILLS. Lets place SRL at the same disadvantages, he would get killed in the ring. Imagine a 37yrs old SRL, facing a guy who is 22yrs old and 15lbs bigger. Some of these fights wouldnt even be sanctioned.

Pure speculation, and whats up with all this imagining s**t, and exactly who did Floyd purely humiliate? A shopworn Oscar? No. A shopworn Shane? Yes. A shopworn Pacquaio?. No. A shopworn Cotto? No. Hatton and Corrales, and neither make anybody's atg anything list. Next.

I think Floyd is BY FAR, LIGHTYEARS, greater and better than SRL. And Imagine Floyd being the same size as SRL, He would humiliate and KO every single person SRL struggled with.

Ok imaginary boy, again, WHO DID FLOYD BEAT THAT SUGGESTS THAT HE IS
LIGHT YEARS BETTER THAN SRL? Please give me a name, any name, and stop with all the speculating.

As far as Floyd and Zab, dude Ray Robinson lost to Lommatta who is an AWFUL fighter. SRL lost to a lightweight in Duran, and look at the size disadvantage Lol

I dont go in on them for losing to fighters they should dominate, because its hard to be consistant. You have off days. But you ignore that at a LATER age, Floyd has faced fighters far more dangerous than Zab, and put on a show.

Dude, Zab was the best pure boxer Floyd faced, but Zab, had already been knocked senseless by Tszyu, and soundly beat by Baldomir. You mention Zab and Duran in the same sentence and I will smack the taste out your mouth.

And you talking about SRL, the GREATEST CHERRYPICKER in the history of the sport? Lol the same man who refused to fight anyone, unless he saw a weakness? The man who fought everyone at the right time? Lol

He beat Benitez and Hearns way before the cherrypicking started, he was already in control of his career, and could have easily ducked both those guys. Next.



Floyd made all that money, and retired to go and spend some of it. But since SRL's scary azz used to retire to duck Hagler, they placed that false trash onto Floyd. Floyd came back at a LATER age, and faced men at greater size, and speed, when he was past prime.

The excuses man I tell ya. Lol
Sugar Ray, ducked moving up to 160 to face Hagler, yup, but Floyd, ducked a hot welterweight division of prime fighters who everybody acknowleges are the guys that would have trumped Sugar Ray, had he fought them at the proper timeline.

In fact, I cant imagine SRL being at the same disadvantages as Floyd and even FACING the opponents Floyd did. SRL wouldnt even fight them.

I couldn't imagine Sugar Ray, holding up a fight for damn near ten years with a smaller guy in Pacquaio, because he was putting cats to sleep, and refused to take a test that didn't even exist at that time, but hey that is just me.

All the young fighters fight to the top of the rank, and whoever has the most standout victory gets Mayweather.

Oh yeah, as long as its a slow mexican, or a shopworn guy. Oh yeah. Cool yeah man bring 'em on. We'll make him look like the beast of all beasts with 24/7 and social media. Lol

Talking about a poll. It was actually COMMENDABLE, that despite Khan winning a poll, Floyd gave the fight to a more deserving fighter. Yet you lied like "Aww he did WRONG by not facing Khan" Khan fought Collazo Lol

The biggest excuse
so far, Khan, represented a stylistic matchup, that Floyd seems to avoid. You know height, reach advantage, and could actually box? Furthermore you excuse over the point that Floyd welched on his own f**king poll.

And SRL fought a ONE HANDED Floyd SR, who is NOT HALF THE FIGHTER JR is, and even though you understand this, you misportraited him as Better and Bigger than Floyd Lol I look at that fight, and imagine how humiliatingly one sided a fight between SRL and Floyd would be. SRL did nothing against a bummy Floyd SR, that told either of us, that he can even edge out a victory against JR. SRL can be as fast as he wants. IDGAF about speed.

One handed Floyd Sr. = excuse
If you couldn't see how Sugar Ray, used ring intelligence to figure Floyd Sr's defense out and get him out of there, I don't know what to tell ya. Floyd Sr., was actually making Sugar miss often, and giving Sugar a hard way to go. I watched that fight when it first aired, and rewatched it several times. Unbiased.

And you talk about Shane, and Corley and whoever else, stunning Floyd. You fool, you just named a bunch of men who LOST To Floyd Lol

SRL would ABSOLUTELY NOT land frequently on Mayweather. His best chances or in the first round, and after that, Floyd has him bodyscanned and know all of the angles his punches would come from. And because of how easy it is to hit SRL, It would be another Floyd show.

Sugar Ray, not only beat, but stopped, a man considered to be one of the best defensive fighters ever in Wilfredo Benitez, who was lineal ww champ, undefeated. THAT suggests to me that he could do the same thing to Floyd. I ask again, for the millionth time, WHO HAS FLOYD BEAT THAT MAKES YOUR ASTRONOMICAL CLAIMS STICK? **** or get off the pot.

SRL is an outdated fighter, that has not done enough to be compared to Floyd, Who made allot of mistakes Floyd DIDNT, he didnt dedicate himself to the sport like Floyd did, and its an INSULT to compare him to Floyd.

No ww in history will knock Floyd. Based on simple facts, 100 out of 100 times, Floyd is factually invinceable. Only way he can lose, is if you go one weight class above his highest weight class, and you can probably find millions of 154lbers and 160lbers who can beat him on size and force (a technicality)

SRL's tall, skinny, and mentally weak behind cannot beat or be competitive with Floyd. Mismatch.

Real talk fam. From here on out, step to me correct with facts, not emotional fanboyism that is fantasy based or we have no discussion.
Resume wise, the ATG's that Sugar Ray has on his resume, suggests to me, and logical thinking, non fanboys who are thorough, that Sugar Ray outranks Floyd on a majority of p4p lists, and would soundly trounce Floyd in a head to head matchup.