Jack Dempsey vs Today's Heavyweights

[M Bison]

It's called studying the sport.

If you haven't seen enough of the old school fighters, what makes you think the new generation guys would beat them? It works both ways.

Size... 175 is LHW under 200 is cruiserweight but most cruiserweights weigh about 210-220 they cut a good bit of weight before weigh-in.
Its pretty simple, Jack wouldn't beat a mobile 250lbs guy because he's be absolutely rag dolled inside the clinch or even just up close.

[John Locke]

Size... 175 is LHW under 200 is cruiserweight but most cruiserweights weigh about 210-220 they cut a good bit of weight before weigh-in.
Its pretty simple, Jack wouldn't beat a mobile 250lbs guy because he's be absolutely rag dolled inside the clinch or even just up close.

The current guys are bigger, but they can't match Dempsey for skill or grit/toughness. Numerous fighters have moved up to heavyweight from lower divisions and won titles, throughout history. Fighters who weren't as good as Dempsey. Size obviously matters but it's not the only thing that matters.

[Kigali]

Size... 175 is LHW under 200 is cruiserweight but most cruiserweights weigh about 210-220 they cut a good bit of weight before weigh-in.
Its pretty simple, Jack wouldn't beat a mobile 250lbs guy because he's be absolutely rag dolled inside the clinch or even just up close.

Chris Byrd started out as MW...he made Vitali quit on his stool.

If he can't handle Byrd then surely he couldn't handle Dempsey.

Vlad has be stopped by guys that couldn't beat Dempsey's spit bucket.

[M Bison]

Chris Byrd started out as MW...he made Vitali quit on his stool.

If he can't handle Byrd then surely he couldn't handle Dempsey.

Vlad has be stopped by guys that couldn't beat Dempsey's spit bucket.

Muhammad Ali was schooled by a middleweight but there is a difference between Vitali loss and Ali loss you know that right?
Vitali had a shoulder injury and had to quit but before it he was winning and up on the cards.
Ali was outclassed by a middleweight but got a robbery decision.
You really don't think things through do you?

[Ray Corso]

"Ali was outclassed by a middleweight but got a robbery decision".

I hate to go here but...............who was this Middleweight?

Ray

[Merciless1]

These threads are always cringe worthy. Some sig worthy material here though: "people are faster now"... REally? So genetically our autonomic nervous system has changed huh? Ted Williams the hitter remains one of a few scoring incredibly high on a reflex test given to pilots...that was in what the early 40's?

"Weight makes great" lets dispel this: Any fighter so desiring could put weight on. Ray Corso says it best "the heavyweight division is an open division." And there is more to a heavyweight than weight...It has to do with your thickness, the size of your bones, your comfort level, your punch tolerance, etc.

Now lets talk about Dempsey: The end of the eighties was a true milestone... Tyson specifically was a special case because with Tyson had been a few select trainers who had actually seen the end of Jack Johnson's career in the ring, all the way up to iron mike. Whats interesting is a majority of these guys, and more than a few who had been there for Dempsey after JJ..., were asked who they thought the best heavy weight fighter they ever got to see...Most of them suprisingly chose Dempsey. Furthermore Tunney, who worked with Corbett, fought the likes of Greb, thought Dempsey was the best he ever fought.

With this in mind what would happen if Dempsey fought in the modern era? This is a very interesting question and there is actually some data. Gene Tunney trained with Corbett to develop his style. Corbett, though technically not a bare knuckles fighter was the last great heavyweight of that era. His technical approach, distancing, strategies were derived from working with Corbett who he admired as a mentor.

Tunney used these methods against the very intelligent and modern Dempsey. Dempsey's approach, coming in and establishing a true puncher's distance, as opposed to the James Figg derived system which was really a fencing system. To understand this watch how Jack Johnson, for example, starts his flurries with a step in, like he is running in, and watch how he sets up in doing this from at least 3 feet away from his opponent. Tunney was always at this distance, and would set up his attacks from this distance when given a chance... much like a fencer will start off with a lunge, and counter off the parry.

In this way there was a clear distinction between attack and defend, and instead of counter punching per se, one would catch the punches with their gloves to parry. Dempsey by contrast would start his attack right from a squared up position in front, his counters resulting from slipping the punches and coming into the body. Dempsey would also throw a hard jab, often stepping in, instead of a lead hand punch, which the old system used. Tunney knew a jab but often, like his mentor and the old system, would keep the foward hand like a piston, and throw it with no turn of the wrist, towards the bottom of the chin. This was a knock out blow when delivered with small gloves or no gloves, but would hardly register with gloves used today.

My point is that Dempsey in theory and practice was a harbinger to the final orthodoxy that was Joe Louis. But what Louis emphasized in technical punches that were perfectly executed, Dempsey was more interested in hitting things hard and working into position where an untelegraphed shot, could be delivered...at such a range that it could KO one in a telephone booth! for those who remember "telephone booths." lol

And that...is what made Jack so ****ing dangerous folks...He was untelegraphed, could hit you at any time because of his new distance, being squared up at all times, and had perfected the short hook, stepping jab and body attack. Against the taller fighters today I see no evidence that they could stop this attack. Dempsey was relentless, was really a lot like prime Tyson...Tyson studied Dempsey and really aped his techniques.

Great stuff. Would green if I could.

[juggernaut666]

Guys before this degenerates into another one of these threads there are a few things we can all probably agree upon:

Tunney happens to be a great example of a guy fighting with understanding from the epoche of boxing before the modern era. His mentor was Corbet who came up pretty much in the tail end of Sullivan's reign.

Gloves were different, the punches that Tunney used, like a lead would not work with larger gloves for one thing. The rules were different. More grappling, things like trapping one hand to hit with the other were allowed in Tunney's time. Fights were longer...For Klitchsko to fight according to Tunney's rules it would be advantageous for him to drop weight so he could fight a long time.

One could compare Dempsey to Klitsko better than Tunney to Klitsko. I hope I am not taking liberties here but could we all agree on the following:

Neither man could fight the other man according to either set of rules and have it be compatible. Either man would have to make a major adjustment to accomodate the other so that there would be no parity... It might as well be another sport. With that said opinions may differ as to whom would win, but in my mind it would depend a lot on what set of conventions was fought under.

Old school rules would favor Wlad,it would be JJ times 3. A big strong puncher/clincher would be nearly impossible to defeat if dirty boxing was once again legal..Put smaller gloves on a better defensive fighter wont go good for Tunney,his main advantage in his time was running around the ring,this method was rarly used then.

No 190 pound fighter is beating Wlad without one punch concussive power.Even then we are talking about a giant with elite skills ,refined jab and a jab/hook from hell who would hit Tunney with little effort at 6'6 and over 80 inch arm reach.

I dont beleive the fight goes long,weight advantage of 240 plus wont bother wlad at all if he needs to fight rounds ,what is often ignored here is the actual punch out puts Wlad delivers he still has the record for most punches thrown in a 12 rnd fight i believe,and no one is lasting long with a guy that size who weighs 190 no matter how you look at it if those punches land over numerous rnds,it would be brutal.

You cannot defeat Wlad unless you can hurt Wlad unless he punches himself out. Give Tunney another 8 inches in height and he still has his hands full. Look at some of Wlads early fights before Steward, thats what he would look like with smaller guys and smaller gloves. In an era where defense is still being configured by fighters ,he would thrive even more so b/c it is then an offensive battle more than a defensive one,as the style then was a bit more reckless and less conscience of not getting hit but hitting so i doubt stamina is going to play a big part.


I dont beleive any set standard here gives Tunney a chance its physically a mismatch and Wlad would be terrifying if he was in that era even if he was 225 pounds. Demspey is far more beleivable considering he was a pressure fighter and liked to clinch and hit and had power. Tunney the long style outside fighter defeating Wlad with in and out footwork? I dont see it.

[Mr.MojoRisin']

Dempsey would probably win the IBO title against a career journey man if it was vacant but he would go nowhere near the sanctioning body's titles. You also know what I said about Usyk was right. If you can't use your eyes and see that Cruiserweight Usyk would destroy Dempsey then I seriously don't know what you and the people agree with your are watching. It's seriously like watching a different variation of what we call boxing today. Please stop comparing him to Super HWs. I don't need to explain who Joshua beat to validate my point.

As for the amateur system and your *neanderthal type philosophy I don't know whether you intentionally keep trying to validate my point. 'All it Is, is a place to hone their skills'. Are you being for real?. Roy Jones jr Silver, Floyd Bronze, Ward Gold, De Gale gold, Badou Olympian, Loma double Gold, Rigondeux double gold, Lewis Gold, AJ Gold.

You ducked almost all of my points providing no counter argument.

Do you seriously think that the guys you mentioned were ready for the pros before they won all of those medals and competed at the elite amateur level? When the amateur system got better, fighters stopped having 300 fight careers. End of that argument.

Joshua has beaten nobody and neither has Usyk. It is easy to look good against B level competition.

[billeau2]

Old school rules would favor Wlad,it would be JJ times 3. A big strong puncher/clincher would be nearly impossible to defeat if dirty boxing was once again legal..Put smaller gloves on a better defensive fighter wont go good for Tunney,his main advantage in his time was running around the ring,this method was rarly used then.

No 190 pound fighter is beating Wlad without one punch concussive power.Even then we are talking about a giant with elite skills ,refined jab and a jab/hook from hell who would hit Tunney with little effort at 6'6 and over 80 inch arm reach.

I dont beleive the fight goes long,weight advantage of 240 plus wont bother wlad at all if he needs to fight rounds ,what is often ignored here is the actual punch out puts Wlad delivers he still has the record for most punches thrown in a 12 rnd fight i believe,and no one is lasting long with a guy that size who weighs 190 no matter how you look at it if those punches land over numerous rnds,it would be brutal.

You cannot defeat Wlad unless you can hurt Wlad unless he punches himself out. Give Tunney another 8 inches in height and he still has his hands full. Look at some of Wlads early fights before Steward, thats what he would look like with smaller guys and smaller gloves. In an era where defense is still being configured by fighters ,he would thrive even more so b/c it is then an offensive battle more than a defensive one,as the style then was a bit more reckless and less conscience of not getting hit but hitting so i doubt stamina is going to play a big part.


I dont beleive any set standard here gives Tunney a chance its physically a mismatch and Wlad would be terrifying if he was in that era even if he was 225 pounds. Demspey is far more beleivable considering he was a pressure fighter and liked to clinch and hit and had power. Tunney the long style outside fighter defeating Wlad with in and out footwork? I dont see it.

Well I do agree that Dempsey is a better match up. You make a good argument regarding the pressure fighter having a better match up when we consider how styles make fights and the relative attributes of the pressure guy. Im not entirely convinced that Vlad's attributes would allow him to game the conditions so much...but its a fair statement that Vlad's waterloo came with pressure guys who could keep coming.

i was going to mention something else and I can't remember...lol

[Mr.MojoRisin']

Lol @ dempsey beating the likes of wlad and joshua.

I roll my eyes whenever a young boxing fan tries to praise these fighters from the 1920s as if they were actually there to experience the whole thing.. im not going to judge a fighter off these black and white 10 minute clips off youtube. I need to see a few fights in full and with clarity.

It makes me chuckle when a fairly young fan talks about Jack Johnson or gene tunney like they understand these fighters inside and out. Reading old articles or listening to what your grandfather told you isnt good enough. One had to actually live in the moment to know ...

Anyway, Amir Mansour would wipe the floor with dempsey

Yep, Ray Arcel was a crackpot old fool!!!