Anyone really believe Floyd is remotely close to being TBE ?

[The Big Dunn]

And didn't Floyd fought Canelo at a catchweight at 152? Talk about hypocrisy, and also missing a catchweight against Marquez.

Manny fought Margarito at 150 after the Margo's last fight at 147 foir a vacant WBO belt at 154 while also Manny is a Former Flyweight Natural Lightweight fighter is it is justified why manny needs a catchweight because it is justified . Manny Fought Miguel Cotto at 145 after Cotto fought Clottey at 146 in his last fight, while then fighting all of his welterweight bouts at the full weight limit beside Algerei. So no, you're wrong, still 8 divisions

Then Floyd pulled Marquez from Lightweight all the way to the welterweight then missing catchweight. How can you justify that pulling a smaller man from his weight class? But yet manny gets criticized for being the smaller man asking bigger men at a certain weight he can get on to.

Can anybody actually survive the shot that Manny took? Manny was on his way stopping JMM, then he walked in to a counter right hand shot head first right on the chin with Marquez's legs and body focused all its weight on that momentum of the punch, no one can survive that shot. Try imagining Floyd walking in to that counter shot, it was Manny being manny trying to finish off JMM. So that's what Floyd has against Pacquiao, so what's the point if Pac counters three of his common opponents?

"IBO is Not a Major belt at 140" Lineal Belts and the Ring Belts are belts determining who is the Man at a weight class, and Ricky was the man at the weight class and paper belts are not needed to classify who is the real champion at 140.

"How can you blame Floyd when Manny refused the fight twice."

Oh you mean the Offer that Manny should take 40 million flat fee then getting 120 million at 2015 and the second offer that Manny should get tested non stop all the way up at fight night?

He defeated ODH and Cotto @ 154. did you forget?

So you don't count it against him. Thats all I was asking. When assessing who is better, those things matter. Floyd had to defeat 154lb champions, Manny won a vacant belt, @151, against a dude that was 1-1 at the weight.

How many times did Manny miss weight? Are you counting that against him as you seem to be doing with Floyd?

Floyd survived 2 shots from a much harder puncher than JMM. Shouldn't he get credit for that?

You can't have it both ways. You want to blame Floyd for decisions Manny made that caused the fight to be delayed.

When it comes to Floyd you use the details to take away from his accomplishments. Do the same with Manny and then compare them. Is it fair when you don't?

There is a reason fair and objective rankings always have Floyd ahead of Manny. Doesn't mean Manny isn't an ATG. He just isn't as good as Floyd.

[Thraxox]

He defeated ODH and Cotto @ 154. did you forget?

So you don't count it against him. Thats all I was asking. When assessing who is better, those things matter. Floyd had to defeat 154lb champions, Manny won a vacant belt, @151, against a dude that was 1-1 at the weight.

How many times did Manny miss weight? Are you counting that against him as you seem to be doing with Floyd?

Floyd survived 2 shots from a much harder puncher than JMM. Shouldn't he get credit for that?

You can't have it both ways. You want to blame Floyd for decisions Manny made that caused the fight to be delayed.

When it comes to Floyd you use the details to take away from his accomplishments. Do the same with Manny and then compare them.

"He deafeated Miguel Cotto and Dela Hoya at 154 did you forget?" Oh I didn't forget, I didn't also forget the fact that Miguel Cotto was a 147 pound fighter at the time and he was a 140 pound fighter two and a half years ago. So then Miguel cotto was suddenly rejuvinated at 154 after he took a beating from Margo and Manny? And also, it was Dela Hoya who decided it at 147. Manny was looking out of shape in the fight, he wasn't so ripped in that fight because he was carrying 12 pounds of extra weight.

If we dissect each fighter out of their respective careers and use all the details to take away their respective accomplishments then both were about just as equal in terms of their second half of their careers (Post Dela Hoya). Floyd Missed weight, Pac Missed weight, both had catchweights, but in the first half of their careers there is no denying that Manny Pac wins by a mile. That's why I think in my opinion Manny is ahead to Floyd by 3-5 places and just like you in your opinion thinking Floyd has a better career and is ahead by Manny by 3-5 places, it's all relative.

But if you truly debate it with papers on your side, it is more likely that Manny gets the nod in terms of better legacy.

"Floyd Survived 2 punches against a harder puncher than JMM" Yes he does get credit for it, and he has a very good chin.

"So you don't count it against him." No, I don't despite bringing marquez from lightweight that was still a great win from floyd.

"There is a reason in fair and objective rankings Floyd is ahead than Manny, not that manny isn't an ATG he is just not good as Floyd." Who is this fair and objective rankings? Boxrec? LOL Try debating this topic on who is the greater pound for pound fighter. There is a reason a lot of boxing pundits not just in the USA but in Russia, Germany, Spain, Mexico etc. etc. have Manny on the top 10 pound for pound of all time.

[The Big Dunn]

"He deafeated Miguel Cotto and Dela Hoya at 154 did you forget?" Oh I didn't forget, I didn't also forget the fact that Miguel Cotto was a 147 pound fighter at the time and he was a 140 pound fighter two and a half years ago. So then Miguel cotto was suddenly rejuvinated at 154 after he took a beating from Margo and Manny? And also, it was Dela Hoya who decided it at 147. Manny was looking out of shape in the fight, he wasn't so ripped in that fight because he was carrying 12 pounds of extra weight.

If we dissect each fighter out of their respective careers and use all the details to take away their respective accomplishments then both were about just as equal in terms of their second half of their careers (Post Dela Hoya). Floyd Missed weight, Pac Missed weight, both had catchweights, but in the first half of their careers there is no denying that Manny Pac wins by a mile. That's why I think in my opinion Manny is ahead to Floyd by 3-5 places and just like you in your opinion thinking Floyd has a better career and is ahead by Manny by 3-5 places, it's all relative.

But if you truly debate it with papers on your side, it is more likely that Manny gets the nod in terms of better legacy.

"Floyd Survived 2 punches against a harder puncher than JMM" Yes he does get credit for it, and he has a very good chin.

"So you don't count it against him." No, I don't despite bringing marquez from lightweight that was still a great win from floyd.

"There is a reason in fair and objective rankings Floyd is ahead than Manny, not that manny isn't an ATG he is just not good as Floyd." Who is this fair and objective rankings? Boxrec? LOL Try debating this topic on who is the greater pound for pound fighter. There is a reason a lot of boxing pundits not just in the USA but in Russia, Germany, Spain, Mexico etc. etc. have Manny on the top 10 pound for pound of all time.

I was just responding to your point about hypocrisy. There was none.

Manny wasn't ahead by a mile. Yes, he had some big wins. He also had some terrible losses. Losses count.

Yes we as fans of each have a different opinion, that is expected. I am not giving my opinion of who had a better career. I am pointing out that in every poll of objective boxing media/journalists/historians always ranks Floyd ahead of Manny. These polls include members from outside the US. You can't just ignore this fact.

Who are these pundits? I have not seen this.

Max Kellerman has suggested Manny is better p4p, but he did so as an HBO employee when Manny was an HBO employee. That isn't objective. Thats equal to Paulie, a SHO employee, saying Floyd, a SHO employee also, is better.

[Kuyukut]

He's not even the BEST FIGHTER F THE DECADE how can he be the TBE. if TBE is the best evader then i think he is hands down.

kaboooooooooooooooooooooooooooom

[Thraxox]

I was just responding to your point about hypocrisy. There was none.

Manny wasn't ahead by a mile. Yes, he had some big wins. He also had some terrible losses. Losses count.

Yes we as fans of each have a different opinion, that is expected. I am not giving my opinion of who had a better career. I am pointing out that in every poll of objective boxing media/journalists/historians always ranks Floyd ahead of Manny. These polls include members from outside the US. You can't just ignore this fact.

Who are these pundits? I have not seen this.

Max Kellerman has suggested Manny is better p4p, but he did so as an HBO employee when Manny was an HBO employee. That isn't objective. Thats equal to Paulie, a SHO employee, saying Floyd, a SHO employee also, is better.

The only 'real' losses he has is The JMM KO, the Erik Morales close decision loss and the Floyd Mayweather loss. Are we really going to count the loss where Pac was just a starving kid fighting for food?

"Who are these pundits? I have not seen this." They aren't commonly found in the internet because the U.S usually gets the cover and they are foreign, but many of them ranked Manny ahead of Floyd.

But in the end there is no objectivity, it drives on opinion.

[Canelo and GGG]

I was just responding to your point about hypocrisy. There was none.

Manny wasn't ahead by a mile. Yes, he had some big wins. He also had some terrible losses. Losses count.

Yes we as fans of each have a different opinion, that is expected. I am not giving my opinion of who had a better career. I am pointing out that in every poll of objective boxing media/journalists/historians always ranks Floyd ahead of Manny. These polls include members from outside the US. You can't just ignore this fact.

Who are these pundits? I have not seen this.

Max Kellerman has suggested Manny is better p4p, but he did so as an HBO employee when Manny was an HBO employee. That isn't objective. Thats equal to Paulie, a SHO employee, saying Floyd, a SHO employee also, is better.

it depends of what you guys mean,Pac had better wins in his careere,and Floyd was more successfull with $$$.Thats about it in this discussion.

[The Big Dunn]

The only 'real' losses he has is The JMM KO, the Erik Morales close decision loss and the Floyd Mayweather loss. Are we really going to count the loss where Pac was just a starving kid fighting for food?

"Who are these pundits? I have not seen this." They aren't commonly found in the internet because the U.S usually gets the cover and they are foreign, but many of them ranked Manny ahead of Floyd.

But in the end there is no objectivity, it drives on opinion.

See, you just did it again. You posted in the first half of their careers there is no denying that Manny Pac wins by a mile. I respond by correctly pointing out Manny had losses and that those count as well, to refute that. Then you ask are we really going to count those losses.

I understand he wasn't prime. My only point is the losses are still real and should be factored into the equation. Do you agree?

How did you come across them then if they are not on the internet? Have you traveled to Russia, Germany, Spain, Mexico etc. etc.?

Yes there is objectivity. You will never please everyone and get everyone to agree but you want your rankings to be respected. When you are asked to rank in a professional setting based on a set of criteria (like Cliff does here) you risk losing your credibility if all you do is rank your favorites.

Floyd always finishes ahead of Manny in these scenarios. That has to count for something.

[The Big Dunn]

it depends of what you guys mean,Pac had better wins in his careere,and Floyd was more successfull with $$$.Thats about it in this discussion.

This is kind of my point about the details.

Morales was coming off the Raheem loss. Barrera had retired after being destroyed 2x by junior Jones but came back and resurrected his career. The same people that point to these wins say Floyd's win over Manny is diminished because Manny was KTFO by JMM. Does the same apply to these wins? (I don't think so but it is interesting to see how people judge wins coming off losses differently).

[Canelo and GGG]

This is kind of my point about the details.

Morales was coming off the loss. Barrera had retired after being destroyed 2x by junior Jones but came back and resurrected his career. The same people that point to these wins say Floyd's win over Manny is diminished because Manny was KTFO by JMM. Does the same apply to these wins? (I don't think so but it is interesting to see how people judge wins coming off losses differently).

i dont care about this loses,if they lose they dont forgot how to box suddenly,what is big Factor for me is that Morales and MAB are about same size with Pac ,and Floyd is bigger than Manny.Floyd have better wins then this over Pac ,like Chico or Cotto and Judah.

Raheem was for Morales like Jones to MAB or JMM to Pacman a nemesis,like José Luis Castillo to Floyd in 1st.

[The Big Dunn]

i dont care about this loses,if they lose they dont forgot how to box suddenly,what is big Factor for me is that Morales and MAB are about same size with Pac ,and Floyd is bigger than Manny.Floyd have better wins then this over Pac ,like Chico or Cotto and Judah.

Raheem was for Morales like Jones to MAB or JMM to Pacman a nemesis,like José Luis Castillo to Floyd in 1st.

Ok. I think losses have to count to a degree. Floyd is about the same size as well, he is just taller and has a longer reach.

Raheem destroyed Erik and ended Morales run as a top fighter. He was much more than a mere nemesis.

My only real complaint is uneven comparisons. IMO, if a win against a dude coming off a KO loss diminshes the win in 1 case, it should be in every case.