Comments Thread For: Loeffler: Brook's Performance May Give Others Courage To Sign!

[Cinci Champ]

got feeling this ones going to purse bid. hbo wont like that

[redmyth79]

It showed 1 real thing...GayLoveKin has avoided pure boxers for a reason, the only one he really has fought is maybe monroe who's still not great, and has very little power, the truth is there. Like I've said, the hype train has overrated goods inside.

Lol, GGG is that good. Not over hyped as u say. 345 and 5L amateur wins says he is pretty damn good. 36-0 professional record just puts a ! Point to that. He looked bad being destructive and went in with a street fight and still stopped a world Champion in 5 rounds with a broke face.
Nobody right now has the goods to beat him. In for those telling him to jump to 175. Remember at 25 years old he was still fighting at 141. So he is not a big middle weight at all.

[Scipio2009]

Exactly. Even though GGG is the A-side and a star, he is willing to fight for no more than $3 mil guaranteed, often less than that.

Meanwhile your beloved Al Haymon duckboys won't even fight him for $3 mil when they're the B-side, including ones who have never made more than half that.

Again Floyd makes over 50 mill a fight so what's 3 mill for me to fight the most avoided fighter https://t.co/pomVk21GKg

— Peter Quillin (@KIDCHOCOLATE) September 10, 2016

/End thread. /End entire argument about GGG, or Al Haymon. Peter Quillin just let the cat out of the bag for all time about how things work with PBC fighters, for all time. The debate that has raged since Haymon came on the scene is officially over. Peter Quillin's admissions just ended it.

That is, if Floyd saying "we're not fighting to prove to boxing fans who the best is" didn't end the debate already. If Floyd saying it's good his team hand-picks fights for him because "everything is supposed to go easy for me" hadn't exposed Haymon fighters already. If Floyd blatantly advising Canelo to duck GGG and advising Andre Ward, a "scaled down light heavyweight," to duck other natural light heavyweights like Sergy Kovalev, hadn't exposed the philosophy of PBC already.

If Danny Garcia's father saying why should they fight Thurmans when they can make money fighting Salkas didn't expose these PBC fighters already.

If Julian Williams tweeting about every middleweight ducking GGG, all the 154s in his own stable (they are all with Haymon but Canelo) ducking him, and insinuating how top young guys are actually supposed to fight each other (a jab at Haymon), didn't expose PBC already.

If Keith Thurman talking about how this is a different era and the best don't really want to fight the best anymore on his side of the street since Floyd and Haymon came along didn't expose them already.

If Kenny Porter's frustration about how long it took for Shawn to get top names in Haymon's stable didn't expose the philosophy of Al Haymon and most the PBC fighters who chose to take and agree with his "advice" already.

If Artur Beterbiev saying he would fight Kovalev if offered, then rejecting what Yvon Michel admitted was a "very fair offer" right after in his home town in Russia, did not expose PBC fighters already.

If Adonis Stevenson declining the Kovalev fight while at HBO as long as they would allow it based on his word, then signing with Haymon the moment HBO tried to demand it, then running to Showtime, then petitioning to move up the WBC purse bid before Duva could get outside financing, didn't expose PBC fighters already.

I hate to break it to you Scipio since you've fallen for these fighters so badly, but your favorite boxers are for the most part not boxers. You have very few to root for anymore. The PBC "fighters" are businessmen. Not "I'll fight the best but the reward has to be equal" businessmen. They are mostly "I will never fight the best because I either don't care or am not good enough to create a legacy in the sport, but I can make a comfortable living cherry picking" businessmen. Businessmen who decline career-high paydays to duck Korobov, of all people. Declining over twice their career highs to duck GGG.

Right now in boxing you have a handful of guys on HBO, like GGG, Kovalev, Lomachenko, etc, who are the last examples of actual boxers, fighters, sportsmen in boxing right now. Fury, Klitschko, Luis Ortiz if he's clean, Chocolatito, guys like that. Inoue, Rigondeaux, and so on. Then you also have a few duckers like Canelo.

But on the PBC side, you have a couple guys who are real boxers, but the ratio is reversed. You have a couple guys, but then you have just a huge laundry list of guys who are no longer sportsmen, they are about paychecks for easy fights and that's it. They don't want to dare to be the best, or don't think they can. They have embraced Mayweather's philosophy that actually advises fighters against making the biggest fights in the sport for career high paydays.

I thought Floyd was about money? GGG-Canelo is the biggets money fight in the sport, and he tells Canelo not to do it. Kovalev-Ward is the biggest money fight for both of them at their natural weights, Floyd tells them not to make it.

SO IF FLOYD, whose strategy goes hand in hand with Haymon's, IS PUBLICLY ADVISING GUYS OUTSIDE HIS STAPLE SPECIFICALLY NOT TO MAKE THE BEST, BIGGEST FIGHTS IN THE SPORT, DESPITE HUGE PAYDAYS, YOU CAN BET THAT THAT HE'S ALSO PRIVATELY ADVISING GUYS WITHIN HIS OWN STABLE NOT TO MAKE THE BEST, BIGGEST FIGHTS IN THE SPORT!

It's that simple. It always was. The last five years of unprecedented ducking in boxing make so much more sense when you realize that this is literally the culture, the philosophy, taught to PBC fighters by Floyd and presumably Haymon. Now that we know because they keep admitting it, the discussion is over. Quillin stated it very clearly, and many others, as I have iisted, have admitted the same thing. The cat is out of the bag. The mystery, the debate, is over.

It has become clear that PBC considers boxing to be too dangerous of a sport to indulge in at the top level, period. Period. That's what it is. They will fight Thurman level guys after marinating for years, but we have never seen a name PBC fighter fight a true elite risk like prime GGG or prime Pacquiao, and we probably never will.

This is how it is. PBC is purely a business venture, full of "businessmen" not fighters trained by Floyd and Haymon to avoid any fight they are at risk of being hurt in, including the biggest and best fights in the sport, no matter the money involved. These are not fighters willing to take risks for a great reward, and daring to be great, these are businessmen who will simply not take real risks because Al Haymon will keep subsidizing them infinitely with moderate paydays to fight non-competitive opponents.

There are a few exceptions, like JRoc, who even with no political impediments have an awful time getting other PBC fighters to fight them. He has been waiting on Charlo all year! Andre Berto wanted Danny Garcia but even Berto is too big of a risk for Garcia!

So even though there are a few exceptions like JRoc, for the most part the PBC stable has been exposed as led by people who don't believe in the best fighting the best, and who advise fighters not to fight the best even when the money is there. And now the fighters themselves have exposed that the PBC fighters have been taking that advise, and operate the exact same way.

Why fight Thurmans when you can fight Salkas? That is the PBC motto.

That is what Floyd is advising them, and they are listening. And that is the real reason why, despite all these arguments back and forth, the best fights have rarely happened. PBC fighters are not interested in that, and the few who are, like JRoc Williams, appear to get stonewalled for years at a time. /End debate. The truth is out.

PS this also proves what I have been trying to tell you guys, which is that so many fans rooting for GGG instead of Haymon fighters has nothing to do with race. More white fans would love to root for more American fighters, black fighters, PBC fighters, the way I have taken to Julian Williams, but as long as most of them are advised by Haymon and Floyd, there is really no one to root for unless they go against the advice of their own advisers, which is very rare. They are all so risk adverse, so against the sport of boxing and just trying to ransack whatever money is left in it without contributing anything to it at the elite level, that it is impossible for any non-biased fan to support them. Williams is the one guy speaking out against this strategy of ducking the best because he feels he is the best, so the ducking only holds him back the same way it's held GGG back, but very few others are speaking out because the rest of them are not the best in their divisions, so they benefit from the ducking.

I have hope for Errol Spence because I think he will be the best at 147 very soon, and therefore he could conceivably not be protected like most the PBC guys. The problem is they will likely protect him anyway because they don't believe in real risk, period, no matter how good you are. So it has nothing to do with race. We would love to root for these guys. I rooted for Danny after he upset Khan, that was a great moment. Same with Stevenson after Dawson. But I quickly realized they were looking to go risk-free the rest of their careers unless shamed into a good fight, so I couldn't support them anymore. It just proves race never had anything to do with it on the side of logical fans. It's the biased ones actually rooting on duckers who obviously have some separate reason for it because certainly what they have contributed in terms of boxing legacy or boxing entertainment does not warrant support over the real legacy sportsmen boxers.

/End thread. The debate is over, but the ducking by most PBC fighters and certain HBO fighters like Canelo who took Floyd's advice will continue on until fans wise up to who is ducking, and who is really trying to be great, and stop supporting the ones who have been ducking.

^^^lol, look at this clown.

K2 has never offered any opponent, in any talks that I've ever seen, anywhere near $3m to fight. To even make the Lemieux fight, Golovkin got his full money, Lemieux got his $1.5m, and K2 took a non-PPV fight to PPV, hoping that the fans will cover it for them.

Billy Joe Saunders was offered all of $1.5m for the fight (even though K2 went to the boxing press, and the boxing press spread their bull****, and talked about having offer $4m for the fight).

If K2 seriously offered anyone $3m to fight, they'd literally be able to have their pick of 98% of the fighters 154-175 to choose from to fight (Alvarez, Cotto, ChavezJr, Stevenson in Montreal, and Sturm in Germany will still likely balk at having their events controlled by K2, but almost every other fighter would be down for it).

K2 talks about wanting to take on and fight everyone, yet never actually put their money where their mouth is, lol.

Ward was ready to fight; went on national TV and openly disrespected Golovkin for everyone to see. Rather than do anything about it, K2 let Golovkin go to the public with some foolish offer for Ward to give up 4lbs to get a 50/50 split on the fight (assuming there was logic behind the statement, rather than simply Golovkin trying to say something to not look like a *****, Golovkin was implicitly angling for a 65/35, possibly 70/30, split of the fight at 168lbs).

Lara wants to fight; has been hounding him for years now. Rather than even offer up the $1m that Canelo put down for the fight (to take on an awkward, ugly fighting guy, who the entire camp didn't want him to fight), K2 has already gone public with nonsense statements about how they can't even offer up the $1m for the fight.

In instance after instance, K2 comes up cheap, and clowns like you defend them (meanwhile, K2 is preemptively working to raise their own price on even the possibility of an Alvarez fight, with the nonsense about $3m for that fight being a **** offer).

If you want to keep being delusional, so be it.

[Scipio2009]

Exactly. Even though GGG is the A-side and a star, he is willing to fight for no more than $3 mil guaranteed, often less than that.

Meanwhile your beloved Al Haymon duckboys won't even fight him for $3 mil when they're the B-side, including ones who have never made more than half that.

Again Floyd makes over 50 mill a fight so what's 3 mill for me to fight the most avoided fighter https://t.co/pomVk21GKg

— Peter Quillin (@KIDCHOCOLATE) September 10, 2016

/End thread. /End entire argument about GGG, or Al Haymon. Peter Quillin just let the cat out of the bag for all time about how things work with PBC fighters, for all time. The debate that has raged since Haymon came on the scene is officially over. Peter Quillin's admissions just ended it.

That is, if Floyd saying "we're not fighting to prove to boxing fans who the best is" didn't end the debate already. If Floyd saying it's good his team hand-picks fights for him because "everything is supposed to go easy for me" hadn't exposed Haymon fighters already. If Floyd blatantly advising Canelo to duck GGG and advising Andre Ward, a "scaled down light heavyweight," to duck other natural light heavyweights like Sergy Kovalev, hadn't exposed the philosophy of PBC already.

If Danny Garcia's father saying why should they fight Thurmans when they can make money fighting Salkas didn't expose these PBC fighters already.

If Julian Williams tweeting about every middleweight ducking GGG, all the 154s in his own stable (they are all with Haymon but Canelo) ducking him, and insinuating how top young guys are actually supposed to fight each other (a jab at Haymon), didn't expose PBC already.

If Keith Thurman talking about how this is a different era and the best don't really want to fight the best anymore on his side of the street since Floyd and Haymon came along didn't expose them already.

If Kenny Porter's frustration about how long it took for Shawn to get top names in Haymon's stable didn't expose the philosophy of Al Haymon and most the PBC fighters who chose to take and agree with his "advice" already.

If Artur Beterbiev saying he would fight Kovalev if offered, then rejecting what Yvon Michel admitted was a "very fair offer" right after in his home town in Russia, did not expose PBC fighters already.

If Adonis Stevenson declining the Kovalev fight while at HBO as long as they would allow it based on his word, then signing with Haymon the moment HBO tried to demand it, then running to Showtime, then petitioning to move up the WBC purse bid before Duva could get outside financing, didn't expose PBC fighters already.

I hate to break it to you Scipio since you've fallen for these fighters so badly, but your favorite boxers are for the most part not boxers. You have very few to root for anymore. The PBC "fighters" are businessmen. Not "I'll fight the best but the reward has to be equal" businessmen. They are mostly "I will never fight the best because I either don't care or am not good enough to create a legacy in the sport, but I can make a comfortable living cherry picking" businessmen. Businessmen who decline career-high paydays to duck Korobov, of all people. Declining over twice their career highs to duck GGG.

Right now in boxing you have a handful of guys on HBO, like GGG, Kovalev, Lomachenko, etc, who are the last examples of actual boxers, fighters, sportsmen in boxing right now. Fury, Klitschko, Luis Ortiz if he's clean, Chocolatito, guys like that. Inoue, Rigondeaux, and so on. Then you also have a few duckers like Canelo.

But on the PBC side, you have a couple guys who are real boxers, but the ratio is reversed. You have a couple guys, but then you have just a huge laundry list of guys who are no longer sportsmen, they are about paychecks for easy fights and that's it. They don't want to dare to be the best, or don't think they can. They have embraced Mayweather's philosophy that actually advises fighters against making the biggest fights in the sport for career high paydays.

I thought Floyd was about money? GGG-Canelo is the biggets money fight in the sport, and he tells Canelo not to do it. Kovalev-Ward is the biggest money fight for both of them at their natural weights, Floyd tells them not to make it.

SO IF FLOYD, whose strategy goes hand in hand with Haymon's, IS PUBLICLY ADVISING GUYS OUTSIDE HIS STAPLE SPECIFICALLY NOT TO MAKE THE BEST, BIGGEST FIGHTS IN THE SPORT, DESPITE HUGE PAYDAYS, YOU CAN BET THAT THAT HE'S ALSO PRIVATELY ADVISING GUYS WITHIN HIS OWN STABLE NOT TO MAKE THE BEST, BIGGEST FIGHTS IN THE SPORT!

It's that simple. It always was. The last five years of unprecedented ducking in boxing make so much more sense when you realize that this is literally the culture, the philosophy, taught to PBC fighters by Floyd and presumably Haymon. Now that we know because they keep admitting it, the discussion is over. Quillin stated it very clearly, and many others, as I have iisted, have admitted the same thing. The cat is out of the bag. The mystery, the debate, is over.

It has become clear that PBC considers boxing to be too dangerous of a sport to indulge in at the top level, period. Period. That's what it is. They will fight Thurman level guys after marinating for years, but we have never seen a name PBC fighter fight a true elite risk like prime GGG or prime Pacquiao, and we probably never will.

This is how it is. PBC is purely a business venture, full of "businessmen" not fighters trained by Floyd and Haymon to avoid any fight they are at risk of being hurt in, including the biggest and best fights in the sport, no matter the money involved. These are not fighters willing to take risks for a great reward, and daring to be great, these are businessmen who will simply not take real risks because Al Haymon will keep subsidizing them infinitely with moderate paydays to fight non-competitive opponents.

There are a few exceptions, like JRoc, who even with no political impediments have an awful time getting other PBC fighters to fight them. He has been waiting on Charlo all year! Andre Berto wanted Danny Garcia but even Berto is too big of a risk for Garcia!

So even though there are a few exceptions like JRoc, for the most part the PBC stable has been exposed as led by people who don't believe in the best fighting the best, and who advise fighters not to fight the best even when the money is there. And now the fighters themselves have exposed that the PBC fighters have been taking that advise, and operate the exact same way.

Why fight Thurmans when you can fight Salkas? That is the PBC motto.

That is what Floyd is advising them, and they are listening. And that is the real reason why, despite all these arguments back and forth, the best fights have rarely happened. PBC fighters are not interested in that, and the few who are, like JRoc Williams, appear to get stonewalled for years at a time. /End debate. The truth is out.

PS this also proves what I have been trying to tell you guys, which is that so many fans rooting for GGG instead of Haymon fighters has nothing to do with race. More white fans would love to root for more American fighters, black fighters, PBC fighters, the way I have taken to Julian Williams, but as long as most of them are advised by Haymon and Floyd, there is really no one to root for unless they go against the advice of their own advisers, which is very rare. They are all so risk adverse, so against the sport of boxing and just trying to ransack whatever money is left in it without contributing anything to it at the elite level, that it is impossible for any non-biased fan to support them. Williams is the one guy speaking out against this strategy of ducking the best because he feels he is the best, so the ducking only holds him back the same way it's held GGG back, but very few others are speaking out because the rest of them are not the best in their divisions, so they benefit from the ducking.

I have hope for Errol Spence because I think he will be the best at 147 very soon, and therefore he could conceivably not be protected like most the PBC guys. The problem is they will likely protect him anyway because they don't believe in real risk, period, no matter how good you are. So it has nothing to do with race. We would love to root for these guys. I rooted for Danny after he upset Khan, that was a great moment. Same with Stevenson after Dawson. But I quickly realized they were looking to go risk-free the rest of their careers unless shamed into a good fight, so I couldn't support them anymore. It just proves race never had anything to do with it on the side of logical fans. It's the biased ones actually rooting on duckers who obviously have some separate reason for it because certainly what they have contributed in terms of boxing legacy or boxing entertainment does not warrant support over the real legacy sportsmen boxers.

/End thread. The debate is over, but the ducking by most PBC fighters and certain HBO fighters like Canelo who took Floyd's advice will continue on until fans wise up to who is ducking, and who is really trying to be great, and stop supporting the ones who have been ducking.

It is a different era; the days of the fighter simply showing up to get beat on, while everyone else minds the money, are over (at least on the PBC side of the fence):

-Beterbiev got a "fair offer" to fight Sergey Kovalev, but the man is one fight away from locking in the leverage to get an even better offer (with his camp happy to wait a bit, as he gets right physically and continues to sharpen his skills). There's no reason for Beterbiev and his camp to simply give money away.

-Main Events' offer to GYM was to, in the face of all this extravagant talk about how big a fight she could make it be for both fighter's PPV debuts in a market where neither guy has ever fought or been seen, split the $3m that HBO offering for the fight and gamble the upside on Duva's ambition. Yvon Michel seemed to know that the fight was worth significantly more than that, and tried to put forward a structure where both camps, 50/50, would share in an even bigger pie.

Duva went back to sucking HBO's **** and ****ed her fighter out of, at the time, his biggest payday (interesting to think what type of shape Kovalev would be in were it not for having the Ward fight manifest).

-Angel Garcia made the statement that big fights deserve big paydays, and shouldn't be taken for short paydays, and there's nothing wrong with that statement. Shawn Porter went from being "Baby Tyson", positioned for a shot a Floyd, to losing his fight to Kell Brook, to needing a bit of rebuild to get back to his spot. Had a late-sub fight, conceded what he had to concede to get Adrien Broner (a PBC "name" fighter) in the ring, won that fight, and then got the opportunity to fight for another 147 world championship (with a $1m purse, plus whatever upside revenues he got, on the line).

Danny Garcia is positioned to be a money fighter, and his father, looking after him, isn't going to squander that for anyone.

-Julian Williams, likely no different than Errol Spence Jr and Keith Thurman beforehand, was likely disgruntled at the pace to which he got to his title shot. Still, whether it be against Charlo or Tony Harrison (winner of the #2 challenger fight), Williams is now positioned to have his fight, with the boxing world opening up to him were he to win (outside of Alvarez and Cotto, I guess, no other 154 fighter is really a box office draw on their own, placing the premium back on locking down title fights, of which Williams would be one of four champions).


Rather than have a fighter spend 20 years in the ring, making untold amounts of money, only to still have to continue fighting on to keep his bills paid (Pacquiao is now trying to spin it back to some "love of boxing", but no one should believe that ****), Haymon and folks who think like Haymon (Alvarez, Canelo, Ward, Eddie Hearn, Mundine in Australia, etc) are helping position fighters to fight for as long as they want, leaving the sport in better shape than when they came in.

Peter Quillin may not have another meaningful fight for the rest of his life (he's talked about a move to 168lb, so we'll see how that goes); with Haymon in his ear, Quillin has his family home paid off, likely has his mother/father comfortable, and has income coming to him beyond any money he could get by being punched in the face (through his real estate/rental properties).

Quillin could come back, and end up being a great super middleweight, but it's refreshing to see that him doing so isn't the difference between his family doing okay and he and his family hoping on the kindness of others to see that he's doing okay.

If you want to hold up HBO as the last bastion for boxing, that's on you.

[Scipio2009]

No one is gonna want to get ****er up for 1.5 million.

Too bad, because GGG isn't a natural ppv star.

So these ****s gonna biiiitch out.

lol. Golovkin doesn't even want to step in to fight Canelo for $2, yet you want to talk **** about folks not wanting to fight Golovkin for $1.5m?

Every fighter does the risk/reward calculation for every fight that gets considered, even Golovkin. K2 duped folks for a while, but it's out in the open now.

If Golovkin/K2 actually want a fight, they'll do what they need to do make the fights viable; if that means Golovkin giving up some of his guarantee, in exchange for upside on the event, I'd hope that Golovkin, "the real fighter", would make that work.

[Scipio2009]

Oh good, Canelo has fought same division his whole adult career.

At the age Canelo turned pro, GGG was a Amatuer.

At 19, GGG was a WW.

Difference is GGG turned pro at 25.

Canelo won a second division, but he hasn't fought a MW yet.

Golovkin is almost 35 years old, and has been fighting at middleweight for the last decade (after spending the last three years in the amateurs fighting at 165lbs).

Golovkin has been at the same weight for 13 years now, yet you're talking ****?

At the age of 20, Saul Alvarez was still fighting, professionally, at 147lbs after debuting, at the age of 15 at 140lbs (starting to fight 147 before he was 17).

Alvarez filled into 154lbs, in the next 1/2 years will be fighting 160lbs, and I have no doubt that, if he's still fighting by his mid 30s, Alvarez will finish up his career fighting 168lbs.

By the age of 34 (counting from when Alvarez was 20), Alvarez is likely to have fought 147lbs, 154lbs, 160lbs, and possibly 168lbs. Over that same stretch (20-34), Golovkin has basically fought 160lbs exclusively.

nice try though

[al-Xander]

Why fight Thurmans when you can fight Salkas? That is the PBC motto.

That is what Floyd is advising them, and they are listening. And that is the real reason why, despite all these arguments back and forth, the best fights have rarely happened. PBC fighters are not interested in that, and the few who are, like JRoc Williams, appear to get stonewalled for years at a time. /End debate. The truth is out.

Yep. Big fights have become super expensive to make in the PBC camp. This explains the sudden inactivity of its fighters. They all want millions of dollars for Salka-type fights.

[MDPopescu]

got feeling this ones going to purse bid. hbo wont like that

Be sure that if this goes to a purse bid, GGG will show up with some Russian mobsters who will win the bid and move the fight in Monaco... be glad when they will not move it in Karaganda...

[Cinci Champ]

Be sure that if this goes to a purse bid, GGG will show up with some Russian mobsters who will win the bid and move the fight in Monaco... be glad when they will not move it in Karaganda...

that may be true and hopefully i could care less who wins it as long as both fighters are paid respectfully and the fight happens and no side backs out playing tv channel politics

[The Big Dunn]

Exactly. Even though GGG is the A-side and a star, he is willing to fight for no more than $3 mil guaranteed, often less than that.

Meanwhile your beloved Al Haymon duckboys won't even fight him for $3 mil when they're the B-side, including ones who have never made more than half that.

Again Floyd makes over 50 mill a fight so what's 3 mill for me to fight the most avoided fighter https://t.co/pomVk21GKg

— Peter Quillin (@KIDCHOCOLATE) September 10, 2016

/End thread. /End entire argument about GGG, or Al Haymon. Peter Quillin just let the cat out of the bag for all time about how things work with PBC fighters, for all time. The debate that has raged since Haymon came on the scene is officially over. Peter Quillin's admissions just ended it.

That is, if Floyd saying "we're not fighting to prove to boxing fans who the best is" didn't end the debate already. If Floyd saying it's good his team hand-picks fights for him because "everything is supposed to go easy for me" hadn't exposed Haymon fighters already. If Floyd blatantly advising Canelo to duck GGG and advising Andre Ward, a "scaled down light heavyweight," to duck other natural light heavyweights like Sergy Kovalev, hadn't exposed the philosophy of PBC already.

If Danny Garcia's father saying why should they fight Thurmans when they can make money fighting Salkas didn't expose these PBC fighters already.

If Julian Williams tweeting about every middleweight ducking GGG, all the 154s in his own stable (they are all with Haymon but Canelo) ducking him, and insinuating how top young guys are actually supposed to fight each other (a jab at Haymon), didn't expose PBC already.

If Keith Thurman talking about how this is a different era and the best don't really want to fight the best anymore on his side of the street since Floyd and Haymon came along didn't expose them already.

If Kenny Porter's frustration about how long it took for Shawn to get top names in Haymon's stable didn't expose the philosophy of Al Haymon and most the PBC fighters who chose to take and agree with his "advice" already.

If Artur Beterbiev saying he would fight Kovalev if offered, then rejecting what Yvon Michel admitted was a "very fair offer" right after in his home town in Russia, did not expose PBC fighters already.

If Adonis Stevenson declining the Kovalev fight while at HBO as long as they would allow it based on his word, then signing with Haymon the moment HBO tried to demand it, then running to Showtime, then petitioning to move up the WBC purse bid before Duva could get outside financing, didn't expose PBC fighters already.

I hate to break it to you Scipio since you've fallen for these fighters so badly, but your favorite boxers are for the most part not boxers. You have very few to root for anymore. The PBC "fighters" are businessmen. Not "I'll fight the best but the reward has to be equal" businessmen. They are mostly "I will never fight the best because I either don't care or am not good enough to create a legacy in the sport, but I can make a comfortable living cherry picking" businessmen. Businessmen who decline career-high paydays to duck Korobov, of all people. Declining over twice their career highs to duck GGG.

Right now in boxing you have a handful of guys on HBO, like GGG, Kovalev, Lomachenko, etc, who are the last examples of actual boxers, fighters, sportsmen in boxing right now. Fury, Klitschko, Luis Ortiz if he's clean, Chocolatito, guys like that. Inoue, Rigondeaux, and so on. Then you also have a few duckers like Canelo.

But on the PBC side, you have a couple guys who are real boxers, but the ratio is reversed. You have a couple guys, but then you have just a huge laundry list of guys who are no longer sportsmen, they are about paychecks for easy fights and that's it. They don't want to dare to be the best, or don't think they can. They have embraced Mayweather's philosophy that actually advises fighters against making the biggest fights in the sport for career high paydays.

I thought Floyd was about money? GGG-Canelo is the biggets money fight in the sport, and he tells Canelo not to do it. Kovalev-Ward is the biggest money fight for both of them at their natural weights, Floyd tells them not to make it.

SO IF FLOYD, whose strategy goes hand in hand with Haymon's, IS PUBLICLY ADVISING GUYS OUTSIDE HIS STAPLE SPECIFICALLY NOT TO MAKE THE BEST, BIGGEST FIGHTS IN THE SPORT, DESPITE HUGE PAYDAYS, YOU CAN BET THAT THAT HE'S ALSO PRIVATELY ADVISING GUYS WITHIN HIS OWN STABLE NOT TO MAKE THE BEST, BIGGEST FIGHTS IN THE SPORT!

It's that simple. It always was. The last five years of unprecedented ducking in boxing make so much more sense when you realize that this is literally the culture, the philosophy, taught to PBC fighters by Floyd and presumably Haymon. Now that we know because they keep admitting it, the discussion is over. Quillin stated it very clearly, and many others, as I have iisted, have admitted the same thing. The cat is out of the bag. The mystery, the debate, is over.

It has become clear that PBC considers boxing to be too dangerous of a sport to indulge in at the top level, period. Period. That's what it is. They will fight Thurman level guys after marinating for years, but we have never seen a name PBC fighter fight a true elite risk like prime GGG or prime Pacquiao, and we probably never will.

This is how it is. PBC is purely a business venture, full of "businessmen" not fighters trained by Floyd and Haymon to avoid any fight they are at risk of being hurt in, including the biggest and best fights in the sport, no matter the money involved. These are not fighters willing to take risks for a great reward, and daring to be great, these are businessmen who will simply not take real risks because Al Haymon will keep subsidizing them infinitely with moderate paydays to fight non-competitive opponents.

There are a few exceptions, like JRoc, who even with no political impediments have an awful time getting other PBC fighters to fight them. He has been waiting on Charlo all year! Andre Berto wanted Danny Garcia but even Berto is too big of a risk for Garcia!

So even though there are a few exceptions like JRoc, for the most part the PBC stable has been exposed as led by people who don't believe in the best fighting the best, and who advise fighters not to fight the best even when the money is there. And now the fighters themselves have exposed that the PBC fighters have been taking that advise, and operate the exact same way.

Why fight Thurmans when you can fight Salkas? That is the PBC motto.

That is what Floyd is advising them, and they are listening. And that is the real reason why, despite all these arguments back and forth, the best fights have rarely happened. PBC fighters are not interested in that, and the few who are, like JRoc Williams, appear to get stonewalled for years at a time. /End debate. The truth is out.

PS this also proves what I have been trying to tell you guys, which is that so many fans rooting for GGG instead of Haymon fighters has nothing to do with race. More white fans would love to root for more American fighters, black fighters, PBC fighters, the way I have taken to Julian Williams, but as long as most of them are advised by Haymon and Floyd, there is really no one to root for unless they go against the advice of their own advisers, which is very rare. They are all so risk adverse, so against the sport of boxing and just trying to ransack whatever money is left in it without contributing anything to it at the elite level, that it is impossible for any non-biased fan to support them. Williams is the one guy speaking out against this strategy of ducking the best because he feels he is the best, so the ducking only holds him back the same way it's held GGG back, but very few others are speaking out because the rest of them are not the best in their divisions, so they benefit from the ducking.

I have hope for Errol Spence because I think he will be the best at 147 very soon, and therefore he could conceivably not be protected like most the PBC guys. The problem is they will likely protect him anyway because they don't believe in real risk, period, no matter how good you are. So it has nothing to do with race. We would love to root for these guys. I rooted for Danny after he upset Khan, that was a great moment. Same with Stevenson after Dawson. But I quickly realized they were looking to go risk-free the rest of their careers unless shamed into a good fight, so I couldn't support them anymore. It just proves race never had anything to do with it on the side of logical fans. It's the biased ones actually rooting on duckers who obviously have some separate reason for it because certainly what they have contributed in terms of boxing legacy or boxing entertainment does not warrant support over the real legacy sportsmen boxers.

/End thread. The debate is over, but the ducking by most PBC fighters and certain HBO fighters like Canelo who took Floyd's advice will continue on until fans wise up to who is ducking, and who is really trying to be great, and stop supporting the ones who have been ducking.

YOu are very threatened by Al Haymon for some reason.