The difference between moving up and outgrowing weightclasses

[_Maxi]

I thought I would make this thread because I often see people saying things like this guy moved up 3 or 4 weight classes when to me it appears that he outgrew those weight classes. I think there are fighters that actually jump up weight classes for challenges but there aren't as many as people think, most times when a fighter moves up it was because the strain of making weight was beginning to affect his performances in the ring. Also it is much easier to go through divisions at lower weights, you can't say stuff like Broner moved up 4 times so why can't Golovkin when it's evident that Broner is simply outgrowing divisions... how many times has Broner lost a belt on the scales?.... Would you say Danny Garcia moved up to 147?? I wouldn't.

Other examples:

Floyd Mayweather: I'm a fan of his but the narrative of him moving up 4 divisions is false in my opinion, he pretty much outgrew all of them except for his move to 154 as that is what I would call a jump up as he could still make 147. A strong piece of evidence is him not honouring the CW with Marquez..... despite his low rehydration weight gain it is clear that he could not get below 146 comfortably and chose to pay Marquez the penalty. Just because you only pack on a couple of pounds doesn't mean you can cut extra weight.

Manny Pacquaio: Less certain about when he did jump up but I believe up until he got to 135 he had been outgrowing divisions but he did make the move up to 147 to face De la Hoya and this was clearly evidenced by the fact he dropped down to 140 for his next fight against Hatton. So you could say he moved up like 2 or 3 divisions.

Hopkins: Now he actually made the move up to LHW... a 2 weightclass jump, he was always a big middleweight but he always made weight without trouble so you can't say he outgrew the weightclass but it would be worth noting that he only made this move after he was dethroned by Jermain Taylor. Would he have done this if he hadn't lost to taylor? .... your guess is as good as mine.

Brook: A large welterweight by any standard but its obvious he is making a 2 weightclass jump here. Golovkin fan boys will try to tell you this guy is a natural middleweight but any one who isn't a cheerleader knows Brook is moving up and not outgrowing his division. He recently talked up a future Spence fight and still holds the IBF title and is yet to vacate it so right now as far as I'm concerned he is still a welterweight.

In Golovkin's case, I don't think very many fighters would move up in his position to be fair. He is average sized for his weight class and holds multiple titles there, of course if he wants to achieve greatness he can move up in the future but people are using bad examples to justify him moving up... I've seen a guy say Canelo moved up (like really??) so why can't GGG. Canelo never moved up anywhere, the guy is outgrowing divisions.... God knows why he's still at 154. I'm no Golovkin fan but I believe in fair criticism regardless of whether you like a fighter or not, very few fighters do what some of you are asking him to do and those that do often do so because of money. There really aren't really any money fights at 168 unless he fights DeGale in the UK.

Just my two cents/pence on the whole moving up thing, if you guys have other examples of fighters who actually moved up and didn't outgrow their divisions I'd like to hear them.

Excellent thread bro. I made a thread on the same subject and I was attacked as usual: http://www.boxingscene.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=701579


But hey, you were one of those who attacked me back then!

OP knows talking about Floyd will get him quoted and replied to.... saw those posts in the p4p poster thread. You're not slick man lol.

[NaijaD]

Give me one respected non trolling poster who has stated categorically that Brook is a natural MW? Or are you just peddling propaganda to pump up an anti GGG fan-base thread in an effort to denegrate the man himself? Brook is a career MW who will probably fill out into a MW. Simples.

Many others have.

I would say you're a troll.... but you probably think you're a great poster so why dive into who thinks what poster is a troll. A number of posters stated brook was basically a MW draining to WW... I'm not diving into forum member credentials.

If I wanted to push anti GGG propaganda then why would I make a thread calling for people to stop asking him to move up?

Did you even read the thread starting post? .... You probably didn't and that's why you're a ****** troll.

[NaijaD]

Excellent thread bro. I made a thread on the same subject and I was attacked as usual: http://www.boxingscene.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=701579


But hey, you were one of those who attacked me back then!

Loool I never said you were wrong on the subject but you were on a tear of making threads discrediting Floyd at the time.... As I've said I'm a fan of Floyd but he's not beyond criticism from me.

[1g5a22]

I would say you're a troll.... but you probably think you're a great poster so why dive into who thinks what poster is a troll. A number of posters stated brook was basically a MW draining to WW... I'm not diving into forum member credentials.

If I wanted to push anti GGG propaganda then why would I make a thread calling for people to stop asking him to move up?

Did you even read the thread starting post? .... You probably didn't and that's why you're a ****** troll.

So you can't give me anyone credible or respected who said that after all then?

Hollow words as usual when it comes to discussing the GGG fan-base. Of course every fighter attracts some idiots but no one can say Brook is a natural MW & nor have i met a fellow fan of a serious nature who disagrees.

[_Maxi]

Loool I never said you were wrong on the subject but you were on a tear of making threads discrediting Floyd at the time.... As I've said I'm a fan of Floyd but he's not beyond criticism from me.

I know, but isn't it weird? you and I say the same. Floyd only moved up from 147 to 154, and I got attacked terribly for stating the truth.
Floyd fans generally can't accept any criticism.

I think GGG posture is reasonable. As most fighters, including Floyd, he's only moving up or down for a big money fight. Otherwise he's fighting at 160. But he's willing to fight anyone at his division, without diva demands.

This is ****ing common sense yet we have to deal with some apes day after day here.

[NaijaD]

I know, but isn't it weird? you and I say the same. Floyd only moved up from 147 to 154, and I got attacked terribly for stating the truth.
Floyd fans generally can't accept any criticism.

I think GGG posture is reasonable. As most fighters, including Floyd, he's only moving up or down for a big money fight. Otherwise he's fighting at 160. But he's willing to fight anyone at his division, without diva demands.

This is ****ing common sense yet we have to deal with some apes day after day here.

I guess we're on the same page on the subject, I'm not a GGG fan but it's absurd to demand that he move up. Most of the posters asking him to do this won't be satisfied till he loses sadly. Middleweight is not a strong division but neither is Supermiddle..... I can't expect someone who is Golovkins size to jump up to 175.... He doesn't even rehydrate that high or walk around that heavy.

[NaijaD]

So you can't give me anyone credible or respected who said that after all then?

Hollow words as usual when it comes to discussing the GGG fan-base. Of course every fighter attracts some idiots but no one can say Brook is a natural MW & nor have i met a fellow fan of a serious nature who disagrees.

Guess your argument about me spreading anti Golovkin propangda didn't work out too well so you need to find something else to complain about.

As I explained earlier GGG fan boys said Brook is a natural MW. I don't care who you think is respectable because that is entirely subjective. You probably think Freedom and Bigdramashow are respectable posters but I and many would beg to differ.

I'm not playing this game with you anymore, the thread topic is fighters who moved up without outgrowing their weightclass.

Do you know any? No? .... Then get lost troll.

[1g5a22]

Guess your argument about me spreading anti Golovkin propangda didn't work out too well so you need to find something else to complain about.

As I explained earlier GGG fan boys said Brook is a natural MW. I don't care who you think is respectable because that is entirely subjective. You probably think Freedom and Bigdramashow are respectable posters but I and many would beg to differ.

I'm not playing this game with you anymore, the thread topic is fighters who moved up without outgrowing their weightclass.

Do you know any? No? .... Then get lost troll.

So you can't give me anyone credible or respected who said that after all then?

So essentially you are peddling untruths?

[champion4ever]

I wouldn't say his work rate stamina and power all increased at 175, he had the same stamina problems and low work rate that he did post 40 years old. The knockdowns he scored were all results of perfect timing (Tarver, Calzaghe, Pascal) and we saw him lose fights due to low work rate (Calzaghe, Dawson) and not having much power. He was probably rejuvenated for the Tarver fight, after that I think it wears off since he's accustomed to the weight. This is all just a product of being old - his late run at 160, his decrease in work rate is a result of getting older.

The better clue was he stated it was getting too difficult to make the weight at 160. He started mentioning this a fight or two before Taylor. But hell, by then he was already 40, not many guys naturally keep growing at age 40. Rather, getting older probably just made it more difficult to shed the 10 pounds to make weight.

In all due respect, if you can attribute Hopkins' uneven performances (decrease in work rate) during his late Middleweight championship reign as a byproduct of getting older and also that he had the same stamina and power issues post 40 years old, then how can you explain his success at Light heavyweight; Where he became both undisputed and unified champion of that division at ages 46 and 49 with those same stamina and power issues?

In addition, how can you explain how he was he able to knockdown Beibut Shumenov in the 11th round of their bout at the age of 49, en route to his split decision victory for the Super WBA title from him?

My answer to those questions are because he was much healthier and heavier than he was at the end of his 160lb championship run. He was no longer burning himself out between fights. by over training in the gym. I say this because athletes typically don't improve with age. They usually decline. I say that his moving up two weight divisions aided his career exponentially; Especially by prolonging it.

[GGG Gloveking]

Personally, I think both Floyd and Manny were on PEDs and were forced to move up by their increased muscle mass. Broner obviously outgrew his divisions. I see Brook fighting once or twice at the most before outgrowing 147. Ward is hard to judge. He didn't look good to me at 172 for Smith, but its possible with training that He could have gotten back to 168 form. Hopkins age and metabolism caught up with him and he had to move up. I think Golovkin is a natural MW, and would not outgrow the division. Canelo is just a weight fluctuating marvel.

Just my 2cents worth...