Haymon lost 430 million in one year!

[al-Xander]

step 1: overpay fighters for crap fighters

step 2: expect overpaid fighters to take tough fights

step 3: fail

Yeah. It's a losing formula and precisely the reason why most Haymon fighters are now inactive.

[MaksBox]

In reality, I think Haymon and PBC blew more than $500 million or more.

The money was put into the company as an investment... not a loan.

The $430 million loss (in just 1 fund) was a write down of the investment of what they think their share of PBC is worth....

Quite frankly, PBC may be Billions in the whole, but they are still valuing the brand at some value... that comes to the $500 million they have left.

They have not yet marked down the second and third round they invested in... so the other shoe will drop soon.

No one knows the true amount of how much PBC makes or losses outside of investors, and I don't know if W&R will disclose that, or if they even have any statements.

The will need a lot more money to keep up their charade, but eventually the investors will start demanding a return on their investment.

None of it so far looks like PBC is being run for profits.... and merely took money from investors to finance their own lifestyles and putting on a few boxing matches.

[Weebler I]

I also suspect Ryan Caldwell (who is still a consultant for PBC & has his own VC fund now) &/or parties he's associated with with money &/or Slick Ricky friendly investors have money on the backend waiting if necessary to bridge the gap between any Waddell money being used up & a TV deal (or delving into the PPV market or starting a streaming service or whatever the plan actually is) being reached. Thus I think spending the full $900M or whatever amount they have isn't PBC's funeral its simply a 2nd round of funding as many companies have in their early years.

I think most people are underestimating the thought that went into this plan & the ability to alter their strategy or bend things as needed to give themselves the best possible outcome even if their reach ultimately exceeds their grasp with becoming "bigger than the UFC".

Sounds a bit pie in the sky at this point m8. It looks very much like a plan that didn't come off (if one wants to take the "plan" at face value).

Indeed, I'm not convinced it wasn't just a continuation of what Haymon did to HBO and Sho for years, extracting overpaid amounts of money for fights that didn't warrant it, except this time he did it to a hedge fund.

[massa of demos]

Damn 99% of his fights are cherry picks and awful, we did get 2 good fights in Frampton/LSC, Porter/Thurman, but besides that really WTF fights do we get? Broner vs Theopane? Wilder vs Arreola LMFAO, Danny vs all of these leftovers.

[bluzi]

He couldve done MUCH better with what he had , and he didnt , no need to sugar coat it , are you guys (the ones defending him) think he did a good job with the backing he had ? really intersted to hear.

[Eff Pandas]

Sounds a bit pie in the sky at this point m8.

I think its less pie in the sky than some of the doom & gloom people who've been saying PBC would be out of business within year one or is ready to throw MUST GO NOW sale signs on that big PBC Jumbotron thing any day now.

Indeed, I'm not convinced it wasn't just a continuation of what Haymon did to HBO and Sho for years, extracting overpaid amounts of money for fights that didn't warrant it, except this time he did it to a hedge fund.

I'm not of the opinion that there for sure isn't nefarious going ons with this or anything else under the surface, but I think based on the known facts it seems unlikely here.

I guess the main things that make me believe there is nothing nefarious going on here is the main attribute Haymon seems to offer fighters is he gives a f#ck about them & there seems to be a bigger overall plan here with creating something similar to other sport leagues long term.

Haymon felt like his brother was f#cked over in the business & wants to help other fighters not be f#cked over. He has numerous fighters who've pledged massive faith in him like Paul Williams who has said Haymon called him daily for months after he was paralyzed in his bike accident. Paulie M who openly criticized Haymon in the past said when he reached out for help in his career Haymon was the only one who answered the call. There are numerous other examples of this including the biggest name in the game who believes he'd have been a billionaire if he'd have met Haymon sooner.

Haymon is also known to get his fighters the most money for fights in & out of PBC (Wade somehow got half a mill for a HBO fight as a distant B side when HBO seems to be pinching pennies) & he charges the less managers % fee of any notable manager that I am aware of. He also seems to give a f#ck about boxers outside the ring as virtually any fighter who's made a million or more with Haymon seems to own/rent real estate & he's given numerous boxers opportunities to get some experience on the announcing side which will likely create a more viable market in boxers talking about boxing as is usually the case in most sports.

And with all that being the case I think the ultimate goal is to create something "bigger than the UFC" which is greatly needed in boxing today & will help the sport become more self sufficient on a regular basis instead of playing things on a big fight to the next big fight basis like it does now. No sport can only operate on making your sport viable via a "super bowl" caliber event once or twice a year. And boxing has proven that as the fan base of boxing in the US has shrunk over the last two decades with premium cable & PPV being the only options to watch elite leve boxing. And to get to the point of altering that marketplace it takes time & money which Haymon has gotten & is putting forth seemingly towards that goal & not some ponzi scheme or short term fix on getting his fighters nice purses as people with no evidence love to suggest.

So TLDR sure Haymon could be some shyster who's only looking at short term gains, but occums razor in relation to the overall story from Haymon's toe being tipped into the boxing pool from the Vernon Forrest days til now & the smaller details of his relationships with fighters & drive towards helping them outside of boxing that few seem to look at or care much about + his innovation in his previous career in concert promotion suggest there is more at work here than getting 10% of his fighters purses to retire to some transexual paradise with dark curtains.

[Eff Pandas]

He couldve done MUCH better with what he had , and he didnt , no need to sugar coat it , are you guys (the ones defending him) think he did a good job with the backing he had ? really intersted to hear.

Hindsight is always 20/20. And **** sometimes companies just do dumb ****. I mean go read about Crystal Pepsi. So to assume any company couldn't do things better is a simplistic way to think about PBC or any business.

That said how you react to mistakes or bad decisions IS important I will admit. And I will say I thought that PBC was slow to implement some basic changes like putting Cubans on cards in Florida or Broner in Cleveland & other guys on cards in their region that will drive up the gate & help build followings for fighters.

I also think the scattered approach to TV networks is as good at cornering the market & preventing competitors from stealing a part of this new marketplace they are trying to create for pro boxing on national TV as it is bad for the overall general confusion with boxing being in too many places after being in too few places just 18 months ago. So I see the issues with this strategy, but I think it evens out with keeping others from riding their coattails too so you can pet peeve this decision either way.

So yea sure PBC could've done things better out of the gate & can do things better now, but its kinda like saying if you knew a year ago what you know today your life would be better. All you can really do is play your hand as you feel is optimal in the moment & then reevaluate after the hand & play things better the next time & more or less I feel like PBC has done that so far. Obviously how far they end up going or not going in the future will be based on reevaluating to maximum benefit which they may or may not be able to do. The main issue I have with the negative Nancy boxing fans is they are quick to call PBC a failure as negative Nancy boxing fans tend to call everything or anyone in boxing a failure upon the first negative fact they can pull up. Its like that predictable stance those negative Nancy boxing fans have of whoever loses between Kovalev & Ward will be called a bum or has been "exposed" on Nov. 20 instead of the loser having just lost a fight to a better elite level fighter on that particular night.

[bluzi]

Hindsight is always 20/20. And **** sometimes companies just do dumb ****. I mean go read about Crystal Pepsi. So to assume any company couldn't do things better is a simplistic way to think about PBC or any business.

That said how you react to mistakes or bad decisions IS important I will admit. And I will say I thought that PBC was slow to implement some basic changes like putting Cubans on cards in Florida or Broner in Cleveland & other guys on cards in their region that will drive up the gate & help build followings for fighters.

I also think the scattered approach to TV networks is as good at cornering the market & preventing competitors from stealing a part of this new marketplace they are trying to create for pro boxing on national TV as it is bad for the overall general confusion with boxing being in too many places after being in too few places just 18 months ago. So I see the issues with this strategy, but I think it evens out with keeping others from riding their coattails too so you can pet peeve this decision either way.

So yea sure PBC could've done things better out of the gate & can do things better now, but its kinda like saying if you knew a year ago what you know today your life would be better. All you can really do is play your hand as you feel is optimal in the moment & then reevaluate after the hand & play things better the next time & more or less I feel like PBC has done that so far. Obviously how far they end up going or not going in the future will be based on reevaluating to maximum benefit which they may or may not be able to do. The main issue I have with the negative Nancy boxing fans is they are quick to call PBC a failure as negative Nancy boxing fans tend to call everything or anyone in boxing a failure upon the first negative fact they can pull up. Its like that predictable stance those negative Nancy boxing fans have of whoever loses between Kovalev & Ward will be called a bum or has been "exposed" on Nov. 20 instead of the loser having just lost a fight to a better elite level fighter on that particular night.

Agree on the Kov vs Ward , regarding the hindsight remarks , of course its hindsight , but thats how you judge things in real life , i dont judge intentions , of course they wanted to make tons of money and have 6million ppl watching their every show , how else should i judge them ? they made decisons and they came out bad , which is why i said they did bad , when CEO`s make bad calls non stop , they get fired by their board.
Failure is a big word , but until this point they are not doing as well as expected to say the least and keeping current pace i expect them to pull the plug sooner rather then later.
I do hope they somehow make it big as i like free boxing and the bigger the stable the better the fights could be.(UFC style)

[Eff Pandas]

regarding the hindsight remarks , of course its hindsight , but thats how you judge things in real life, i dont judge intentions , of course they wanted to make tons of money and have 6million ppl watching their every show , how else should i judge them ?

I didn't say you shouldn't judge them.

I'm merely saying that every company should attempt to make the best decision at the moment they need to make that decision. As a poker player I know that when there are so many variables in play even if you play things perfectly you can have a negative outcome or just not as positive an outcome as you had hoped for. I think there is some of that in play in trying to revive boxing on regular TV.

And as I also stated I do think mistakes were made, but EVERY company makes mistakes & misjudgements. Apple makes mistakes. Walmart makes mistakes. Netflix makes mistakes. Whats important is learning & surviving after those mistakes & so far PBC has done just that.

Failure is a big word , but until this point they are not doing as well as expected to say the least and keeping current pace i expect them to pull the plug sooner rather then later.

What was expected? I think bringing boxing back to the mainstream was considered a long term game from the start as PBC's original plan with the strategy we do know about has stated they are going to be the irrational player in the market for several years (into the 4-5 year mark iirc) which is exactly what they have been in their first 17 months. And I don't think anyone said there would be a 6M viewer fight within 17 months or anything like that so I'm not sure how they are failing on any known expectations although its a fair assessment private expectations haven't been met, but again if you reach all your expectations your expectations are too f#cking low.

[The Gambler1981]

I didn't say you shouldn't judge them.

I'm merely saying that every company should attempt to make the best decision at the moment they need to make that decision. As a poker player I know that when there are so many variables in play even if you play things perfectly you can have a negative outcome or just not as positive an outcome as you had hoped for. I think there is some of that in play in trying to revive boxing on regular TV.

And as I also stated I do think mistakes were made, but EVERY company makes mistakes & misjudgements. Apple makes mistakes. Walmart makes mistakes. Netflix makes mistakes. Whats important is learning & surviving after those mistakes & so far PBC has done just that.



What was expected? I think bringing boxing back to the mainstream was considered a long term game from the start as PBC's original plan with the strategy we do know about has stated they are going to be the irrational player in the market for several years (into the 4-5 year mark iirc) which is exactly what they have been in their first 17 months. And I don't think anyone said there would be a 6M viewer fight within 17 months or anything like that so I'm not sure how they are failing on any known expectations although its a fair assessment private expectations haven't been met, but again if you reach all your expectations your expectations are too f#cking low.

It is a long term plan no doubt and still not even worth judging because their disruption to the boxing market has yet to be totally fulfilled. There s no way they went in with the plan they have not ready to absorb a lot of losses because no one starts up a business that is changing how things work in any industry expecting to print money off the rip. There is literally no way anyone involved was like lets put boxing on TV and count the profits as they roll in, anyone would know it would take time, effort and even more investment to make that money back longer term after they have a much firmer grasp on the market.

Plus any start-up given money is expected to spend that money not be holding onto it even if he spent it on a matching set solid gold toilets for the office. It seems the money was spent on the product or infrastructure though which is money that needed to be spent.

They could have messed up and they could fail earlier than they intended to make that call but that is how things go sometimes. PBC has made their share of mistakes like any start-up and some are inherent in their plan as you say, but they will adjust and fix things as they have to. I still don't get how they don't have a PBC mouthpiece like Danny White, it is not like Schaefer and Dibella are bad at what they do but it is not like they can create an over arching PBC voice to really push the product from the positions they currently hold.