To 20 p4p since 1980

[oldgringo]

fairly good list. personally, i think you rate 'flash' higher then old school skill and technique but that's just me. to each his own i guess.

It's tough putting technitians like McCallum and Lopez down there...especially when McCallum was one of my favorite fighters.

As far as Whitaker and Leonard go...it's just tough to rate those guys anywhere but those two slots. I have always maintained that Whitaker is a top 10-12 p4p fighter all-time...and if I put him in somewhere else on that list it would ruin any strands of credibility I may have as a poster.

Also, I'm just weighing what every one of those fighters has done AFTER 1980. If I took into account the other things, Duran would be #1 and guys like Arguello and Wilfred Benitez would be much higher. As a matter of fact, I don't even know if Benitez should be on my list because I can't recall him doing much but beating Duran after the 80's rolled around.

[morancito]

1 Julio Cesar Chavez
2 Roberto Duran (best work before the 80's, probably)
3 Pernell Whitaker
4 Marvin Hagler
5 Sugar Ray Leonard
6 Thomas Hearns
7 Larry Holmes
8 Salvador Sanchez
9 Wilfrido Gomez
10 Azumah Nelson
11 Alexis Argüello
12 Aaron Pryor
13 Roy Jones Junior
14 Evander Holyfield
15 Bernard Hopkins
16 Ricardo López
17 Goldie
18 Tito
19 MAB
20 Lennox/PBF

[Yogi]

According to the annual "best fighters" polls that KO Magazine and later, Ring Magazine compiled, these are the top twenty total point getters when including all the years from 1980 to 2002 (don't have the ones from the last three years, so...);

1. Roy Jones Jr. - 1188
2. Pernell Whitaker - 881
3. Julio Cesar Chavez - 758
4. Marvin Hagler - 699
5. Oscar De La Hoya - 684
6. Felix Trinidad - 512
7. Mike Tyson - 509
8. Evander Holyfield - 488
9. Ray Leonard - 473
10. Shane Mosley - 401
11. Ricardo Lopez - 369
12. Larry Holmes - 352
13. Thomas Hearns - 337
14. Floyd Mayweather Jr. - 258
15. Michael Spinks - 241
16. Alexis Arguello - 228
17. Terry Norris - 225
18. Bernard Hopkins - 224
19. Aaron Pryor - 200
20. Hector Camacho - 182

...Meeeh!

[oldgringo]

According to the annual "best fighters" polls that KO Magazine and later, Ring Magazine compiled, these are the top twenty total point getters when including all the years from 1980 to 2002 (don't have the ones from the last three years, so...);

1. Roy Jones Jr. - 1188
2. Pernell Whitaker - 881
3. Julio Cesar Chavez - 758
4. Marvin Hagler - 699
5. Oscar De La Hoya - 684
6. Felix Trinidad
7. Mike Tyson - 509
8. Evander Holyfield - 488
9. Ray Leonard - 473
10. Shane Mosley - 401
11. Ricardo Lopez - 369
12. Larry Holmes - 352
13. Thomas Hearns - 337
14. Floyd Mayweather Jr. - 258
15. Michael Spinks - 241
16. Alexis Arguello - 228
17. Terry Norris - 225
18. Bernard Hopkins - 224
19. Aaron Pryor - 200
20. Hector Camacho - 182

...Meeeh!

Unsatisfying list to say the least. Would you have the patience and/or courtesy to offer your own thoughts Yogi? Much appreciated.

[morancito]

Gringo, I think if you include the Professor, you have to include Sanchez, no matter how short his career was.

Anyway your list is rock solid. The only other miss is Wilfrido Gomez, imo.

[Too Short]

1 Hagler
2 Leonard
3 Whitaker
4 Chavez
5 De La Hoya
6 Hearns
7 Roy Jones
8 Ricardo Lopez
9 Nelson
10 Holyfield
11 Duran
12 Pryor
13 Tyson
14 Trinidad
15 Barrera
16 Toney
17 Arguello
18 Spinks
19 Holmes
20 Nunn

[j]

kostya tszyu

and........... kostya tszyu!

well, someone had to mention him. how could he not be looked at as one of the greats of the last 20 years?

[Azteca]

re PBF34:
yes, i am aware of the p4p system. it started with benny leonard - who didn't move up in weight but did beat larger man.

re oldgringo:

fair enough, i was just stating my opinion.

i don't rate whitaker top 10-12 p4p, rather around 20-25 but i won't argue. he was a great fighter who always fought on his own terms - so it's very tough to root against him, especially in these mythical matchups. i would give him the benefit of the doubt against most welterweights, but not all. like ive said, the old timers of the past were just so authentically tough unlike the coddled guys of today.

it also seems the fighters you listed up top we could list as some of the 'greats' of the 80s and 90s and beyond seem to me to be the premier ATHLETES of the era in boxing - Whitaker, Leonard, Hearns, Jones, Pryor, DLH etc. all these men basically purveyed their trade with massive physical advantages (possibly in a couple of cases artificially induced but thats another story) which often led to them seeming head and shoulders above their contemporaries.

for me, at least, i almost always include arguello, duran, chavez, lopez near the top because they represented the lost arts of boxing (nowadays). feinting/bodypunching.

[oldgringo]

re PBF34:
yes, i am aware of the p4p system. it started with benny leonard - who didn't move up in weight but did beat larger man.

re oldgringo:

fair enough, i was just stating my opinion.

i don't rate whitaker top 10-12 p4p, rather around 20-25 but i won't argue. he was a great fighter who always fought on his own terms - so it's very tough to root against him, especially in these mythical matchups. i would give him the benefit of the doubt against most welterweights, but not all. like ive said, the old timers of the past were just so authentically tough unlike the coddled guys of today.

it also seems the fighters you listed up top we could list as some of the 'greats' of the 80s and 90s and beyond seem to me to be the premier ATHLETES of the era in boxing - Whitaker, Leonard, Hearns, Jones, Pryor, DLH etc. all these men basically purveyed their trade with massive physical advantages (possibly in a couple of cases artificially induced but thats another story) which often led to them seeming head and shoulders above their contemporaries.

for me, at least, i almost always include arguello, duran, chavez, lopez near the top because they represented the lost arts of boxing (nowadays). feinting/bodypunching.

In my eyes, Whitaker always embodied the sweet science. Hit and don't get hit, outsmatr and outwit your opponent. I love sluggers and pure boxers and everything in between. Whitaker brilliance in the ring just caught my interest from a young age and always stuck with me.

The thing people don't give him credit for is that he actually could go against the grain and knock out his opponents when he needed to. Just look at what he did to Juan Nazario and Diosbelys Hurtado. Nazario is a guy who had gone 8 rounds with a prime Edwin Rosario before succumbing in that fight, and then he knocked him out in 9 in their next bout (although that came after Chavez ruined him). Still though, Whitaker knocked him (Nazario) clean out with 1 punch in a unified title fight. Not ridiculously compelling but overlooked nonetheless.

Another reason I put him so high is that I really cannot see too many 135/140 pounders ever beating him in a heads up situation. Providing that both fighters are in their best imaginable forms, I can only see Duran beating Whitaker in that'd have to be in a 15 round fight. He was just too skilled and defensively adept to lose at his best. His jab was very educated and he had the strongest legs I've ever seen on a fighter 140 and under. At welterweight there are a few guys I can see beating him so I won't go there.

Also, I don't think anyone could out-feint Pernell.

[oldgringo]

re PBF34:
yes, i am aware of the p4p system. it started with benny leonard - who didn't move up in weight but did beat larger man.

re oldgringo:

fair enough, i was just stating my opinion.

i don't rate whitaker top 10-12 p4p, rather around 20-25 but i won't argue. he was a great fighter who always fought on his own terms - so it's very tough to root against him, especially in these mythical matchups. i would give him the benefit of the doubt against most welterweights, but not all. like ive said, the old timers of the past were just so authentically tough unlike the coddled guys of today.

it also seems the fighters you listed up top we could list as some of the 'greats' of the 80s and 90s and beyond seem to me to be the premier ATHLETES of the era in boxing - Whitaker, Leonard, Hearns, Jones, Pryor, DLH etc. all these men basically purveyed their trade with massive physical advantages (possibly in a couple of cases artificially induced but thats another story) which often led to them seeming head and shoulders above their contemporaries.

for me, at least, i almost always include arguello, duran, chavez, lopez near the top because they represented the lost arts of boxing (nowadays). feinting/bodypunching.

But once again like I said, if I could consider accomplishments in any part of the 70's, guys like Arguello and Benitez would move up. Arguello was one of the most lethal, precise punchers I've ever seen in a ring. After the 80's, he beat Boza Edwards, Navarette, Mancini, and Ramirez....but I can't really remember him doing anythign else besides the unbelievably close loss to Mr. Pryor.

I love technitians like him and McCallum. They perfect their craft and turn that into pain for their opponents.