Hopkins or Toney - who was better?

[MotorCityJaguar]

Toney IMHO.
James was champion at 160, 168 and 190 (back than the cruiserweight limit was at that weigh) and was a top contender at heavyweight an light heavyweight.
Hopkins was champion at 160 and 175.
Toney beat the better opponents. No doubt about that.
Hopkins had more longevity, but Toney started much younger.


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[gauze]

You don't actually buy that excuse?

He tested positive more than once, by the way.

You say Welterweight stars and I wouldn't dispute that. Although I'd say Hopkins resume is more fighting smaller guys at a higher weight class than just welterweights.

That said, would Toney beat Tito as easily as Hopkins at 160? Would he beat Winky and Pavlik as easy as Hopkins at 170? A resounding no is the answer.

I am far from a Hopkins fan. But he's a whole different level to James Toney.

i think toney destroys pavlik and tito at any weight and stops them earlier than hopkins. a prime toney vs prime winky at 160 would be one hell of a fight, but i think toney takes that, and probably makes easier work of him at 168-175. i'm not sure what your "resounding no" is based on outside of your opinion. there aren't really common opponents to draw conclusions from. i especially think pavlik is tailor-made for toney based on their styles.

now a prime hopkins vs pavlik, maybe another story and he takes him out. i consider a prime hopkins to be around the time of the glen johnson fight. that's a far cry from the guy who fought pavlik and who knows how he would have performed at the higher weights if he were prime. toney has proved against jirov and holyfield that he can hurt bigger guys while being past his own prime, while hopkins hasn't.

and for the record, i didnt think hopkins vs winky was an easy fight. a very ugly affair where styles and orthodox vs southpaw made for a difficult fight to score (and watch). neither fighter accomplished much offensively in that fight and it may be a bit of a knock against hopkins in this debate because winky was obviously not at his best weight.

good thread! nice to see people discussing boxing on here for a change.

[IronDanHamza]

i think toney destroys pavlik and tito at any weight and stops them earlier than hopkins. a prime toney vs prime winky at 160 would be one hell of a fight, but i think toney takes that, and probably makes easier work of him at 168-175. i'm not sure what your "resounding no" is based on outside of your opinion. there aren't really common opponents to draw conclusions from. i especially think pavlik is tailor-made for toney based on their styles.

now a prime hopkins vs pavlik, maybe another story and he takes him out. i consider a prime hopkins to be around the time of the glen johnson fight. that's a far cry from the guy who fought pavlik and who knows how he would have performed at the higher weights if he were prime. toney has proved against jirov and holyfield that he can hurt bigger guys while being past his own prime, while hopkins hasn't.

and for the record, i didnt think hopkins vs winky was an easy fight. a very ugly affair where styles and orthodox vs southpaw made for a difficult fight to score (and watch). neither fighter accomplished much offensively in that fight and it may be a bit of a knock against hopkins in this debate because winky was obviously not at his best weight.

good thread! nice to see people discussing boxing on here for a change.

My respounding no comes from the fact that Toney didn't "destroy" any top tier opponent in his entire career.

Who did Toney "destroy" on Trinidad's level? At Middleweight or any weight? No one. What he actually did at Middleweight was getting soundly beaten by Dave Tiberi, edged out a draw with a journeyman Sanderline Williams, win a hard fought spilt decision against Merqui Sosa and get his ears boxed off by Reggie Johnson. All but Reggie were unranked.

Yet, you're trying to tell me he "destroys" Tito. Yeah....right. There is NOTHING Toney did to suggest that.

You're telling me he destroys Pavlik at 170. Once again, who did Toney "destroy"? He got beaten with relative ease by Drake Thadzi. Outboxed by Montell Griffin. Yes Griffin was a good fighter but still, one step away from elite.

Not that Pavlik is elite but he was very good. I could easily see Pavlik outworking Toney to a hard fought SD. No way in hell does Toney "destroy" him.

Toney only destroys top tier guys in fantasy land. He never did it in the ring.

In the ring he was beaten and struggled with sub par, unranked opponents.

[-MAKAVELLI-]

im a big Lights Out fan but Hopkins has had the better resume


shame these two never tangled before Toney ate his way to the higher weight classes

[Johnwoo8686]

Such a poor argument; "Well Roach said it!" Ok, so I suppose you take everything Roach says as gospel then?

Hopkins footwork may not have been special, but it was a damn sight better than Toney's. Toney's footwork is not good.

Since when does being dropped equate to how good some owns defense is? Whitaker got dropped more times than Toney are you going to tell me that Toney has a better defense than Whitaker? Toney barely got dropped because of his great chin more than anything. He sure as hell got hit enough. A LOT more than Hopkins did.

Hopkins barely spoiled in his prime so I won't even respond to that statment.

How is that a poor argument. Freddie Roach is a trainer who has been awarded multiple times. He's been involved in boxing as a trainer and fighter for decades and he worked with both guys. So are you going to say his opinion does not matter?

Hopkins said Toney was more talented and Roy Jones said Toney was the best guy he had faced in his prime. You think you are more knowledgeable than they are?

Now, you're just being argumentative and hard headed.

[IronDanHamza]

Toney IMHO.
James was champion at 160, 168 and 190 (back than the cruiserweight limit was at that weigh) and was a top contender at heavyweight an light heavyweight.
Hopkins was champion at 160 and 175.
Toney beat the better opponents. No doubt about that.
Hopkins had more longevity, but Toney started much younger.


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What about losses? Are we just going to act like he didn't lose and struggle with sub par and poor oppositon in his prime?

Toney's only win who you could say is better than Hopkins wins is Nunn and that's a fight he was getting schooled in. The McCallum "win" he was fortunate to get the decision to say the least.

Toney has no performance that's comparable to Hopkins domination of Tito.

[IronDanHamza]

How is that a poor argument. Freddie Roach is a trainer who has been awarded multiple times. He's been involved in boxing as a trainer and fighter for decades and he worked with both guys. So are you going to say his opinion does not matter?

Hopkins said Toney was more talented and Roy Jones said Toney was the best guy he had faced in his prime. You think you are more knowledgeable than they are?

Now, you're just being argumentative and hard headed.

Ok so Freddie Roach's word is gospel to you then?

You're literally bringing nothing to this argument. Nothing but he said she said.

[Skip Bayless]

toney is on a different level talent wise but bhop has the better legacy

[Johnwoo8686]

Ok so Freddie Roach's word is gospel to you then?

You're literally bringing nothing to this argument. Nothing but he said she said.

I brought references and posted video footage of an actual world champion stating his opinion. You have literally brought nothing but your own biased opinion. "Oh Toney got hit more" so therefore Hopkins is better? Let's discount the top guys Toney beat in his prime and the fact that he had a longer undefeated streak than Hopkins ever had.

[IronDanHamza]

I brought references and posted video footage of an actual world champion stating his opinion. You have literally brought nothing but your own biased opinion. "Oh Toney got hit more" so therefore Hopkins is better? Let's discount the top guys Toney beat in his prime and the fact that he had a longer undefeated streak than Hopkins ever had.

You posted a video of other people's opinion. Like that means anything.

I've broken down Toney's flaws, referenced these flaws across numerous fights.

Your argument is Roy Jones and Freddie Roach say so.

So I suppose that's it then, if Roy Jones and Freddie Roach think it then it must be true why even have an opinion on anything? Let's just echo their sentiments on everything regarding boxing.

Longer undefeated run Toney turned pro in 1988 he couldn't even make it out of 1992 without getting soundly beaten by Dave ****ing Tiberi.

Oh, and Toney did get hit more than Hopkins did. That's factual to anyone with two functioning eyes.