Can we have an objective discussion of GGG?

[Kazakh Thunder]

Boxers that ducked/ducking GGG

1---Felix sturm - wouldn't fight him for over 2 years when GGG was mandatory.

2---Peter quillin - said he will only fight for the may-pac kind of money, lol + he flew to Haymon to avoid GGG

3---Sergio martinez - "His promoter said that "no way I am putting him with this monster", GGG kept calling him out after his U.S. debut after every fight

4---Miguel cotto - ducked his mandatory(GGG) twice by fighting Geale and Canelo

5---Julio cesar chavez jr - Turned down 12mil offer by TR

6---Saul alvarez - Avoiding his mando(GGG). Thinks that he is fighting at the weight-class of 155, as there is no such thing as a "155 weight-class" ,he is pretending to be not in the MW division because of GGG.There are 17 divisions just pick one, if you can't make 154 then you are a MW, simple.

7---Carl froch - After calling GGG out then when GGG accepted ,he backed down and now he is retired after making all the fuss, + GGG was calling him for more than a year so no excuses for "retiring".

8---Andrea Ward - The diva of the 168lb division don't want to travel or meet the a-side GGG in a catchweight so he can become a good boy and get ktfo. Was willing to goto 160 for Floyd but when GGG said 164, Ward ducked + he was fine when Dawson came down a whole division for him but wont move half a division for GGG, smh

9---Billy joe Saunders - Even before winning the WBO title from Lee his fear of Golovkin was as biright as day this is just one of many interviews(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJuwAz-ekoQ), then after winning it he priced himslef out at 6 mil$

10---Hassaan ndam njikam -When Hassaan was WBO champ, he was ordered to a purse bid to face Golovkin no less than two times and he was a no show each time.

11---Darren Barker - When Barker defeated Geale to become IBF champ, his promoter openly said that Barker will fight any1 except GGG


GGG already beat 10 top10, including 4 world champs, 16 defenses so 4 wins more to b-hop's record, never even been down in 400 fights, Amateur legend 345-5, olympic silver medal, world amateur gold, AND finally ducked by almost everyone.

[Citizen Koba]

we have objective discussions about GGG all the time, until his diehard fans join in and defend actions from him that they previously criticized when other fighters did the same thing.

I think you'll find that your opinion is subjective too, as is the OPies. Whether or not you agree with something is not a criteria for establishing objectivity. Just sayin'.

And by the same token the hypocrisy of some GGG fans is matched by the hypocrisy of some of his critics pointing the finger for actions they defended in other fighters.

Objectively there's no right or wrong side here, just a bunch of guys arguing in circles, apparently cos they enjoy it. Go figure.

[Daddy T]

he certainly seems to be very divisive around here - probably the most divisive since floyd. He's got a lot of fans and a lot of haters.

If you see somebody focusing their comments on either group ... and saying that group alone are the problem and the reason you can't have a debate about him here then you can be sure said person has their own bias and can take the rest of what they say about him with a pinch of salt.

[HandsofIron]

Gennady Golovkin has one of the most decorated Amateur careers in boxing when it comes to active fighters that crossed over and are at the top. Clearly guys like Lomachenko and Rigondeaux have far more illustrious amateur careers, and you have your noteworthy talents that had obtained Gold like Andre Ward and Oleksandr Usyk that are undefeated and doing great professionally but just for those who GGG isn't that talented, typically being an Olympic Silver Medalist and world Games Gold Medalist says a lot for your technical skills.

35-0 Professionally, 32 Knockouts. Highest Knockout ratio of any Middleweight champion in boxing history. Looking over his career, it's hard to tell now but at the time he had fought his opponents he looks to have had 7 or 8 wins (and all knockouts) over top 10 opponents.

As for some of his noteworthy attributes, he's great at shifting, the lost art of shifting...as Jack Dempsey would say. He has thunderous power. He works the body as well as anyone in the business. His chin has seemed rather granite notoriously never having been to the canvas in over 350 amateur bouts and 35 professional. His cardio also seems fantastic, he drowns people in the later rounds. He's showcased quite the impressive battering ram of a jab, which seemed to silence some critics for his lack of utilization of it before the Lemeiux fight.

The criticisms...Oh, how common do we hear "who he beat" or "he hasn't beat nobody though" as some thinly veiled excuse to try and discredit a fighter that isn't from North or South America so commonly from the boxing communities. Well, we've clarified he's beaten more top 10 MW's than any other MW currently fighting but if that's not good enough for you allow me to take a different approach.

The Ducking: Call it what you will, explain the "business" and "political" nuances all you want as if no one but you understands. It's hard to beat the big names when they all won't fight you because "you're too much of a risk, and not enough of a reward."

The beginning of the noteworthy ducking fiascos started with Julio Cesar Chavez Jr. He was offered 7million dollars to fight GGG for the title and declined to sign the contract ( Golovkin signed it). He was still a Middleweight at the time.

Sergio Martinez, avoided GGG for quite a while despite him being the clear and away contender. Once he was injured and came back it was quoted saying "Martinez won't face an animal like Golovkin"

Miguel Cotto, Cotto got the lottery in this fight thanks to Martinez ducking GGG. Miguel went on to duck GGG (pretty much tradition at MW now) and took a fight with Daniel Geale getting out of a contract where GGG was the mandatory challenge...then yet again weaseled out of a contract obligating him to fight GGG to cashout against Canelo similar to how Martinez did with Cotto.

Billy Joel Saunders, has been verbal about not wanting to fight Golovkin. He also to Eubank Jr ( Golovkin would knock me and you out in the same night). He's now been open to taking the fight only recently but who knows.

Now...I won't say Canelo is ducking yet, but he's certainly quacking like one. Won't take the fight unless it's at 155lbs. Finagled a fight against Amir Khan who's not even a middleweight for his title defense and avoided fighting GGG. Now all sorts of speculation that Canelo won't fight GGG next, that he needs to grow into the weight class ( he has the belts....what a joke). Del La Hoya won't say that GGG is next either.

Every top fighter for the most part in GGG's division, every big name you heckle him for not beating has pretty much avoided him like the plague...and why because he's not that good?

The sparring sessions GGG is known for killing guys in the Gym. Be it Cesar Chavez Jr or Sergei Kovalev. He has also sparred with guys like Canelo Alvarez vs Shane Mosley.

The Call outs people love to harass GGG for calling Andre Ward out at 164lbs when he offered to fight Carl Froch at 168lbs( maybe he should have fought Ward at 168lbs, a fight I think Ward would win). Which is kind of weird to me, your Middleweight champion is trying to make fights happen against greats in other divisions, not because he wants to but because he's been avoided by everyone in his division because of fear (I'll call it that, you can call it good business decisions). He's been stating the entire time he wants to unify all the MW' titles. He was willing to fight Floyd at 154lbs...Floyd never responded to that directly he only said "I'm not a Middleweight, when will he move up? I'd fight GGG" but he pretends like the 154lb offer was never made. People use that offer to then say "he'll fight Floyd at 154lbs, but not Canelo at 155lbs" Who knows, I think the general consensus is what Canelo is doing as a MW champion is a bit ****ty with the whole Caneloweight but I won't be surprised if Golovkin obliges him at 155lbs or they meet somewhere in the middle.

The SizeEveryone likes to say how big GGG is even though when he fought Lemiux he was 165lbs and Lemieux was 175lbs....Which is what Canelo usually weighs the night of the fight 175lbs...Not that it should matter if you pass regulation and you make weight, then that's that. I just want to point out the hypocrisy.

In parting, is it really so ridiculous to so many fans that you're a "golovtard" if you think he's one of the best boxers alive today? Clearly he's one of the greatest talents, with one of the great records in the game...and I'm not sure what he does to garner so much of the Americans and Latin Americans hate, does it make you feel insecure people think he's so great? We are talking about a fighter who has spent half his career being ducked by the top fighters in his division and fans have the gumption to say "but who he beat, he ain't beat nobody"

What objective discussion? Your post was still biased as hell towards GGG.

Here's some objectivity for you, 160 is a dead division filled with bums except for GGG. 168 is no better, it has a few decent fighters but that's not saying much.

Cotto and Canelo aren't ducks because they both haven't had any fights at 160 before despite them capturing MW gold at catchweights. They're in different weight divisions, Canelo and Cotto being super welterweights/154 and GGG a middleweight/160.

Simply put, GGG is a terrific, offense juggernaut but he has no one to challenge him at 160 or even 168. I feel he beats everyone from 160-168.

GGG can truly be tested from the guys at 175 imo and this ain't a knock on him. All the great ones moved up in weight from Leonard, Duran, Benitez, Chavez, to ODLH, Trinidad and the list goes on.

[b00g13man]

Can we have an objective discussion of GGG? :

He couldn't have kept a straight face after typing that, surely.

[just the facts]

I love GGG and so do many others. He also has a huge group on here who hate him for no reason that I can understand. I agree with everything you said except for Canelo weighing 175 on fight night. I don't think he has ever weighed more than 172 on fight night and sometimes he has weighed a few pounds less than that.

It's not hate, it's that despite what the g string ball gaggers (you, Silver Miles, Golovkon) tell us, we still believe you have to fight quality fighters to be considered a great fighter.

Does anyone believe that if there were a fighter that would have cemented Marvin Haglers position as a great fighter just 8 pounds above middleweight, he would have passed?

[bluzi]

Haters gonna hate , But as a GGG fan , if he takes another step aside money and doesnt strip Canelo I wont care anymore about defending him , he needs to humilate Canelo NOW in the ring (better) or outside by showing everyone what a coward he is , if its another money grab step aside , **** it , im done with defending him as he brings it on himself.

[Scipio2009]

If he had fought Cesar Chavez Jr, Sergio Martinez and then a staple big name like Canelo or Cotto and blasted them, many people would then consider him the best MW ever. Since they all pretty much welched and ran from fighting him, it's not exactly GGG's fault. On a skill for skill evaluation he's one of the best MW's in my opinion but he's spent 5-6 years now trying to get the big fights he deserved with little to no success in his division, not his fault boxing is just a bit of a kangaroo court.

So while, his resume doesn't stack up to guys like Greb's, Hagler's, Robinson's, Jones's etc that's not exactly his fault. GGG has been avoided throughout his prime and will probably start getting these bigger fighters only once he's 35-36 and then the boxing vultures will swoop and say "he was never that good!".

...except that he didn't fight any of those guys.

Beyond that, skill for skill, no one can make any such declaration for the simple fact that he's yet to test himself against anyone better than Martin Murray (a rugged MW, who has shown himself to be a touch below Martinez ans Strum).

Golovkin had the opportunity to fight Erislandy Lara (a tough, rangy, southpaw stylist, who gives everyone fits, with pop in his left hand and a guy who walks into the ring at ~170lbs; the boxing world generally accepts that Lara can fight). Golovkin had the opportunity to fight Andre Ward (SMW kingpin, and basically universally seen as the #2 fighter on the planet).

Golovkin took neither opportunity, for whatever reason he and his camp want to put forward.

Lucky for him, the WBA (after the Alvarez-Golovkin fight doesn't happen for September) will force him to step into the ring with someone who the boxing world seems to accept can fight, in Daniel Jacobs.

If the fight happens, and Golovkin simply throttles Jacobs, folks can now start saying something about Golovkin's skills being in the conversation with the actual MW greats of history (though he'd still need to put fighters on his resume)

[buddyguns]

Fighting the #10/#9 rated guy (often cycling to a new #10 or #9 guy after knocking off the prior #10/#9 guy) in 6 out of his alleged 8 best fights can't be covered up with a "fought top 10 opponents" platitude.

Golovkin was a very good amateur; no one will deny him that.

The fact still remains that, as a profesional boxer, Golovkin's been in all of maybe two fights where the actual bout was expected to be a fight (though still never being in an even fight; I believe the narrowest odds that Golovkin has ever seen for a fight were the 8:1 odds that he was favored against Daniel Geale).

Golovkin has basically been in fights that you'd undergird a hot prospect with for 10 years, yet folks are earnestly trying to put him in the conversation for "best middleweight ever" nonsense.

Until he actually fights someone worth fighting, I give Golovkin minimal credit for being a good amateur who turned pro.

I hope the mods ban you for speaking logic on NSB. You should know that talk of this nature is a faux pas.

But yes, expecting a guy to be in an even fight when he receives high levels of adoration from the boxing community should seem like the obvious. But GGG gets a pass because he wants the belts that virtually every boxing fan mocks in any other discussion.

GGG's only problem appears to be his team. They don't seem to have the skills to make big fights happen. Or the same argument that is applied to Oscar and GBP being unwilling to throw their cash cow in with a serious challenge, can be applied to K2.

[Steven_Seagal]

I'm a Golovkin fan... and you're not coming off as objective. There are some things you're exaggerating (for example sparring with Kovalev - first, it's sparring. Second, Kov was coming off a vacation and wasn't in shape), there are some things you're plain wrong on (he used to fight behind the jab a lot, it didn't just come to him in the Lemieux fight; he weighted 170, not 165), and some things you're over simplifying (for example, Sergio 'ducking' him. It just made no sense at all for Martinez in 2013).

Also, your post is well researched, but you basically summarized all the popular articles/videos (for example 'lost art of shifting' is straight off youtube). You want to get some real appreciation for Golovkin's style and skill that vast majority of the people do not realize? Try this

I actually got it from reading Dempsey's book, not Youtube. My grandfather told me to read it when I was younger and was doing amateur boxing.

Sergio ducked GGG, he took fights against way lesser opposition. To say fighting GGG didn't make sense but guys like Macklin and Murray did? Why because GGG was a steeper challenge and Sergio didn't want to risk losing? Then people criticize Golovkin for not having fought guys like Martinez. It's a catch 22, and while politics have always existed in boxing it's getting worse and ducking is being more and more condoned by the fans ontop of it.

As for Golovkins weight, in different fights he's weighed in different amounts but 165, or 170...is not terribly relevant my point is just Canelo is saying he needs to get bigger and grow into the MW division when he weighs more naturally and during the night of the fight than Golovkin does.

I intentionally tried to simplify a lot of things because the goal was to avoid an excessively long wall of text ( and I failed still). I agree that sparring is just sparring, and should not be used as any real kind of barometer for what would happen in an actual fight. My point is just to people who constantly discredit and question who Golovkin has beaten, he has sparred tons of greats and is notorious for being a handful for every single one of them in sparring.