Can we have an objective discussion of GGG?

[b00g13man]

tl;dr

we have objective discussions about GGG all the time, until his diehard fans join in and defend actions from him that they previously criticized when other fighters did the same thing.

Pretty much.

[The Big Dunn]

tl;dr



Pretty much.

yeah man. whenever GGG gets held accountable, his diehard fans come in and say every criticism is rooted in race (even when the poster criticizing isn't black or hispanic) or hate of some kind.

Yet when they criticize similar actions from other fighters, they are doing so only as boxing fans.

How can anyone expect a thread not to go south when this happens.

[Scipio2009]

Gennady Golovkin has one of the most decorated Amateur careers in boxing when it comes to active fighters that crossed over and are at the top. Clearly guys like Lomachenko and Rigondeaux have far more illustrious amateur careers, and you have your noteworthy talents that had obtained Gold like Andre Ward and Oleksandr Usyk that are undefeated and doing great professionally but just for those who GGG isn't that talented, typically being an Olympic Silver Medalist and world Games Gold Medalist says a lot for your technical skills.

35-0 Professionally, 32 Knockouts. Highest Knockout ratio of any Middleweight champion in boxing history. Looking over his career, it's hard to tell now but at the time he had fought his opponents he looks to have had 7 or 8 wins (and all knockouts) over top 10 opponents.

As for some of his noteworthy attributes, he's great at shifting, the lost art of shifting...as Jack Dempsey would say. He has thunderous power. He works the body as well as anyone in the business. His chin has seemed rather granite notoriously never having been to the canvas in over 350 amateur bouts and 35 professional. His cardio also seems fantastic, he drowns people in the later rounds. He's showcased quite the impressive battering ram of a jab, which seemed to silence some critics for his lack of utilization of it before the Lemeiux fight.

The criticisms...Oh, how common do we hear "who he beat" or "he hasn't beat nobody though" as some thinly veiled excuse to try and discredit a fighter that isn't from North or South America so commonly from the boxing communities. Well, we've clarified he's beaten more top 10 MW's than any other MW currently fighting but if that's not good enough for you allow me to take a different approach.

The Ducking: Call it what you will, explain the "business" and "political" nuances all you want as if no one but you understands. It's hard to beat the big names when they all won't fight you because "you're too much of a risk, and not enough of a reward."

The beginning of the noteworthy ducking fiascos started with Julio Cesar Chavez Jr. He was offered 7million dollars to fight GGG for the title and declined to sign the contract ( Golovkin signed it). He was still a Middleweight at the time.

Sergio Martinez, avoided GGG for quite a while despite him being the clear and away contender. Once he was injured and came back it was quoted saying "Martinez won't face an animal like Golovkin"

Miguel Cotto, Cotto got the lottery in this fight thanks to Martinez ducking GGG. Miguel went on to duck GGG (pretty much tradition at MW now) and took a fight with Daniel Geale getting out of a contract where GGG was the mandatory challenge...then yet again weaseled out of a contract obligating him to fight GGG to cashout against Canelo similar to how Martinez did with Cotto.

Billy Joel Saunders, has been verbal about not wanting to fight Golovkin. He also to Eubank Jr ( Golovkin would knock me and you out in the same night). He's now been open to taking the fight only recently but who knows.

Now...I won't say Canelo is ducking yet, but he's certainly quacking like one. Won't take the fight unless it's at 155lbs. Finagled a fight against Amir Khan who's not even a middleweight for his title defense and avoided fighting GGG. Now all sorts of speculation that Canelo won't fight GGG next, that he needs to grow into the weight class ( he has the belts....what a joke). Del La Hoya won't say that GGG is next either.

Every top fighter for the most part in GGG's division, every big name you heckle him for not beating has pretty much avoided him like the plague...and why because he's not that good?

The sparring sessions GGG is known for killing guys in the Gym. Be it Cesar Chavez Jr or Sergei Kovalev. He has also sparred with guys like Canelo Alvarez vs Shane Mosley.

The Call outs people love to harass GGG for calling Andre Ward out at 164lbs when he offered to fight Carl Froch at 168lbs( maybe he should have fought Ward at 168lbs, a fight I think Ward would win). Which is kind of weird to me, your Middleweight champion is trying to make fights happen against greats in other divisions, not because he wants to but because he's been avoided by everyone in his division because of fear (I'll call it that, you can call it good business decisions). He's been stating the entire time he wants to unify all the MW' titles. He was willing to fight Floyd at 154lbs...Floyd never responded to that directly he only said "I'm not a Middleweight, when will he move up? I'd fight GGG" but he pretends like the 154lb offer was never made. People use that offer to then say "he'll fight Floyd at 154lbs, but not Canelo at 155lbs" Who knows, I think the general consensus is what Canelo is doing as a MW champion is a bit ****ty with the whole Caneloweight but I won't be surprised if Golovkin obliges him at 155lbs or they meet somewhere in the middle.

The SizeEveryone likes to say how big GGG is even though when he fought Lemiux he was 165lbs and Lemieux was 175lbs....Which is what Canelo usually weighs the night of the fight 175lbs...Not that it should matter if you pass regulation and you make weight, then that's that. I just want to point out the hypocrisy.

In parting, is it really so ridiculous to so many fans that you're a "golovtard" if you think he's one of the best boxers alive today? Clearly he's one of the greatest talents, with one of the great records in the game...and I'm not sure what he does to garner so much of the Americans and Latin Americans hate, does it make you feel insecure people think he's so great? We are talking about a fighter who has spent half his career being ducked by the top fighters in his division and fans have the gumption to say "but who he beat, he ain't beat nobody"

Fighting the #10/#9 rated guy (often cycling to a new #10 or #9 guy after knocking off the prior #10/#9 guy) in 6 out of his alleged 8 best fights can't be covered up with a "fought top 10 opponents" platitude.

Golovkin was a very good amateur; no one will deny him that.

The fact still remains that, as a profesional boxer, Golovkin's been in all of maybe two fights where the actual bout was expected to be a fight (though still never being in an even fight; I believe the narrowest odds that Golovkin has ever seen for a fight were the 8:1 odds that he was favored against Daniel Geale).

Golovkin has basically been in fights that you'd undergird a hot prospect with for 10 years, yet folks are earnestly trying to put him in the conversation for "best middleweight ever" nonsense.

Until he actually fights someone worth fighting, I give Golovkin minimal credit for being a good amateur who turned pro.

[Steven_Seagal]

Fighting the #10/#9 rated guy (often cycling to a new #10 or #9 guy after knocking off the prior #10/#9 guy) in 6 out of his alleged 8 best fights can't be covered up with a "fought top 10 opponents" platitude.

Golovkin was a very good amateur; no one will deny him that.

The fact still remains that, as a profesional boxer, Golovkin's been in all of maybe two fights where the actual bout was expected to be a fight (though still never being in an even fight; I believe the narrowest odds that Golovkin has ever seen for a fight were the 8:1 odds that he was favored against Daniel Geale).

Golovkin has basically been in fights that you'd undergird a hot prospect with for 10 years, yet folks are earnestly trying to put him in the conversation for "best middleweight ever" nonsense.

Until he actually fights someone worth fighting, I give Golovkin minimal credit for being a good amateur who turned pro.

If he had fought Cesar Chavez Jr, Sergio Martinez and then a staple big name like Canelo or Cotto and blasted them, many people would then consider him the best MW ever. Since they all pretty much welched and ran from fighting him, it's not exactly GGG's fault. On a skill for skill evaluation he's one of the best MW's in my opinion but he's spent 5-6 years now trying to get the big fights he deserved with little to no success in his division, not his fault boxing is just a bit of a kangaroo court.

So while, his resume doesn't stack up to guys like Greb's, Hagler's, Robinson's, Jones's etc that's not exactly his fault. GGG has been avoided throughout his prime and will probably start getting these bigger fighters only once he's 35-36 and then the boxing vultures will swoop and say "he was never that good!".

[b00g13man]

If he had fought Cesar Chavez Jr, Sergio Martinez and then a staple big name like Canelo or Cotto and blasted them, many people would then consider him the best MW ever. Since they all pretty much welched and ran from fighting him, it's not exactly GGG's fault. On a skill for skill evaluation he's one of the best MW's in my opinion but he's spent 5-6 years now trying to get the big fights he deserved with little to no success in his division, not his fault boxing is just a bit of a kangaroo court.

So while, his resume doesn't stack up to guys like Greb's, Hagler's, Robinson's, Jones's etc that's not exactly his fault. GGG has been avoided throughout his prime and will probably start getting these bigger fighters only once he's 35-36 and then the boxing vultures will swoop and say "he was never that good!".

[Derranged]

we have objective discussions about GGG all the time, until his diehard fans join in and defend actions from him that they previously criticized when other fighters did the same thing.

Yea because his die hard detractors are rational and objective... Works both ways, lad. GGG is the new Floyd in this regard. Both sides of the spectrum have ruined any kind of discussion.

[icha]

Can we have an objective discussion of GGG? :

[j0zef]

Gennady Golovkin has one of the most decorated Amateur careers in boxing when it comes to active fighters that crossed over and are at the top. Clearly guys like Lomachenko and Rigondeaux have far more illustrious amateur careers, and you have your noteworthy talents that had obtained Gold like Andre Ward and Oleksandr Usyk that are undefeated and doing great professionally but just for those who GGG isn't that talented, typically being an Olympic Silver Medalist and world Games Gold Medalist says a lot for your technical skills.

35-0 Professionally, 32 Knockouts. Highest Knockout ratio of any Middleweight champion in boxing history. Looking over his career, it's hard to tell now but at the time he had fought his opponents he looks to have had 7 or 8 wins (and all knockouts) over top 10 opponents.

As for some of his noteworthy attributes, he's great at shifting, the lost art of shifting...as Jack Dempsey would say. He has thunderous power. He works the body as well as anyone in the business. His chin has seemed rather granite notoriously never having been to the canvas in over 350 amateur bouts and 35 professional. His cardio also seems fantastic, he drowns people in the later rounds. He's showcased quite the impressive battering ram of a jab, which seemed to silence some critics for his lack of utilization of it before the Lemeiux fight.

The criticisms...Oh, how common do we hear "who he beat" or "he hasn't beat nobody though" as some thinly veiled excuse to try and discredit a fighter that isn't from North or South America so commonly from the boxing communities. Well, we've clarified he's beaten more top 10 MW's than any other MW currently fighting but if that's not good enough for you allow me to take a different approach.

The Ducking: Call it what you will, explain the "business" and "political" nuances all you want as if no one but you understands. It's hard to beat the big names when they all won't fight you because "you're too much of a risk, and not enough of a reward."

The beginning of the noteworthy ducking fiascos started with Julio Cesar Chavez Jr. He was offered 7million dollars to fight GGG for the title and declined to sign the contract ( Golovkin signed it). He was still a Middleweight at the time.

Sergio Martinez, avoided GGG for quite a while despite him being the clear and away contender. Once he was injured and came back it was quoted saying "Martinez won't face an animal like Golovkin"

Miguel Cotto, Cotto got the lottery in this fight thanks to Martinez ducking GGG. Miguel went on to duck GGG (pretty much tradition at MW now) and took a fight with Daniel Geale getting out of a contract where GGG was the mandatory challenge...then yet again weaseled out of a contract obligating him to fight GGG to cashout against Canelo similar to how Martinez did with Cotto.

Billy Joel Saunders, has been verbal about not wanting to fight Golovkin. He also to Eubank Jr ( Golovkin would knock me and you out in the same night). He's now been open to taking the fight only recently but who knows.

Now...I won't say Canelo is ducking yet, but he's certainly quacking like one. Won't take the fight unless it's at 155lbs. Finagled a fight against Amir Khan who's not even a middleweight for his title defense and avoided fighting GGG. Now all sorts of speculation that Canelo won't fight GGG next, that he needs to grow into the weight class ( he has the belts....what a joke). Del La Hoya won't say that GGG is next either.

Every top fighter for the most part in GGG's division, every big name you heckle him for not beating has pretty much avoided him like the plague...and why because he's not that good?

The sparring sessions GGG is known for killing guys in the Gym. Be it Cesar Chavez Jr or Sergei Kovalev. He has also sparred with guys like Canelo Alvarez vs Shane Mosley.

The Call outs people love to harass GGG for calling Andre Ward out at 164lbs when he offered to fight Carl Froch at 168lbs( maybe he should have fought Ward at 168lbs, a fight I think Ward would win). Which is kind of weird to me, your Middleweight champion is trying to make fights happen against greats in other divisions, not because he wants to but because he's been avoided by everyone in his division because of fear (I'll call it that, you can call it good business decisions). He's been stating the entire time he wants to unify all the MW' titles. He was willing to fight Floyd at 154lbs...Floyd never responded to that directly he only said "I'm not a Middleweight, when will he move up? I'd fight GGG" but he pretends like the 154lb offer was never made. People use that offer to then say "he'll fight Floyd at 154lbs, but not Canelo at 155lbs" Who knows, I think the general consensus is what Canelo is doing as a MW champion is a bit ****ty with the whole Caneloweight but I won't be surprised if Golovkin obliges him at 155lbs or they meet somewhere in the middle.

The SizeEveryone likes to say how big GGG is even though when he fought Lemiux he was 165lbs and Lemieux was 175lbs....Which is what Canelo usually weighs the night of the fight 175lbs...Not that it should matter if you pass regulation and you make weight, then that's that. I just want to point out the hypocrisy.

In parting, is it really so ridiculous to so many fans that you're a "golovtard" if you think he's one of the best boxers alive today? Clearly he's one of the greatest talents, with one of the great records in the game...and I'm not sure what he does to garner so much of the Americans and Latin Americans hate, does it make you feel insecure people think he's so great? We are talking about a fighter who has spent half his career being ducked by the top fighters in his division and fans have the gumption to say "but who he beat, he ain't beat nobody"

I'm a Golovkin fan... and you're not coming off as objective. There are some things you're exaggerating (for example sparring with Kovalev - first, it's sparring. Second, Kov was coming off a vacation and wasn't in shape), there are some things you're plain wrong on (he used to fight behind the jab a lot, it didn't just come to him in the Lemieux fight; he weighted 170, not 165), and some things you're over simplifying (for example, Sergio 'ducking' him. It just made no sense at all for Martinez in 2013).

Also, your post is well researched, but you basically summarized all the popular articles/videos (for example 'lost art of shifting' is straight off youtube). You want to get some real appreciation for Golovkin's style and skill that vast majority of the people do not realize? Try this Wilson Kayden's channel. He does in depth, technical, film studies of many fights, including some of Golovkin's. Here's an example.

[just the facts]

I think GGG would have destroyed Marvin Hagler within 8 rounds. The man is a monster

You obviously DKSAB if you think this is true.

[MASTERBX]

The problem with lil g is he is a coward.