Is Sugar Ray Robinson overrated?

[Blond Beast]

I agree to a degree with what you say.

I do not contest that Sugar Ray Robinson should be the greatest of all time. But that is in the context of his era and the degree of separation he had amongst his peers.

But I know for certain that there have been plenty of fighters beyond his era that would beat him throughly and some that could stop him. I don't hold that against Ray Robinson because they have the advantage of learning from him and the other great fighters born after him that passed on even more refined boxing knowledge.

From about the 80's and onwards Ray Robinson would be going against fighters that have the benefit of knowing what works and doesn't work against certain styles. And he would have the disadvantage of going against people more skilled than him.

But I hold the upmost respect for Ray Robinson as he has contributed everlasting knowledge on boxing that has shaped the way we fight today.

Right. All active fighters regardless of when they fought share the same advantage over the ones who have retired. That advantage is having more history to learn from. The population has ballooned and continues to do so also. Way larger gene pool to draw from. It’s easy to call someone the greatest, it’d be a lot harder to actually bet on them against a modern top fighter.

[Roadblock]

174 wins , go look at boxrec and his opponents and add up the reds in their last 5 fights they are losses ,,,,,,,,, Ray beat 150 cans, great fighter but take out the romancing and look at his career by todays standards he could not do it , he would be crucified for fighting can after can, his career would compressed into the modern greats around 50-70 fights against a much better overall class than the 150 nobodies on his resume.

The best guys of the modern era would give Ray all he could handle, and the best guys could pretty much beat 150 cans just as easy .

I don't believe in the GOAT deal, for there are lot of greats throughout history with only splitting of hairs between them, imagine say GGG *****g MW Ray too sleep and how that what effect history, man has a way of embellishing the darlings of history .

[KillaMane26]

Robinson the only fighter I'm biased towards and earned the right to be.

The guy was amazing, he was the complete fighter, and his resume and accolades backed it up.

The only thing u can take away from him was the time period he fought in....and late career losses which don't hold much weight considering how many fights he won and the number of weight classes he moved to.

[shza]

His record was padded for sure but he beat more prime ATGs and HOF guys than anybody else and often did it multiple times over a span of almost two decades (to say nothing of the eye test)... Angott (who beat prime Pep), Zivic (who’d toppled Armstrong), Lamotta, Gavilan (arguably top 20), Basilio, Graziano, Olson, Fullmer... if you think those guys were bums go watch some tape.

#1 is debatable (there’s a good case for Armstrong there imo) but top 5 is a lock.

[War Room]

I've seen quite a few of his professional bouts and many highlights of his and although he had immeasurable power in both hands and had a wide variety of punches in his arsenal, I just don't see how he is the greatest of all time. His boxing IQ was good, but it didn't seem elite. Don't get me wrong, I think he would be a threat in any era, but I personally feel Marvin Hagler & Hopkins would have beaten him. Can someone give me logical and legit reasons as why he is labled "Greatest of All Time" to many hardcore boxing fans and convince me as to why he has earn that title. Your input is highly appreciated. Thank you.

If you think Hagler or Hopkins is anywhere near the same league as Robinson, YDKSAB.

Robinson killed a man and dreamt it the night before, the same punch too. He was a visionary and the one and only true goat. You've obviously never boxed and if you did it was at a grocery store. Robinson was poetry in motion. To throw those combinations in the way he did, practically impossible for modern fighters because they don't train enough.

Honestly though, you people are endless, your boxing brains are sooo small it's unbelievable.

Might be time to pack it in here. Not sure I can do much more of this. This really is exhausting.

[ShoulderRoll]

Right. All active fighters regardless of when they fought share the same advantage over the ones who have retired. That advantage is having more history to learn from. The population has ballooned and continues to do so also. Way larger gene pool to draw from. It’s easy to call someone the greatest, it’d be a lot harder to actually bet on them against a modern top fighter.

The use of the shoulder roll was common back in the '40s and '50s. In fact Floyd's father learned it in boxing camps from a trainer who was then 70+ years old.

How come hardly anyone seems to be using it today, and the ones who do don't use it effectively or correctly?

Modern fighters have all that history to learn from, right? So why are they actually WORSE technically than the old timers?

[BodyBagz]

Who here wants to see a top fighter take on 10+ bums a year ?

[Blond Beast]

The use of the shoulder roll was common back in the '40s and '50s. In fact Floyd's father learned it in boxing camps from a trainer who was then 70+ years old.

How come hardly anyone seems to be using it today, and the ones who do don't use it effectively or correctly?

Modern fighters have all that history to learn from, right? So why are they actually WORSE technically than the old timers?

Do you want me to say it’s because fighters are slower, weaker, less intelligent, poorly trained... less good trainers, less fighters, regressing of knowledge? It’s not surprising that the best reflexes fighter in Floyd was the modern fighter that could pull it off. So the shoulder roll is front and present. Every boxer has practiced it for sure in the modern era. Clearly you have to be great at it to make it worthwhile against today’s top fighters. So one argument is that fighters were better athletes with better reflexes back in the day with better trainers?Or maybe fighters have found ways to outperform against the shoulder roll? It has been around for a long time as you said. So maybe the evolution was that more fighters found ways to beat it than fighters found reasons to maintain it? If it was still as effective a style for everyone to master then why did it fade out of favour? Ive watched a lot of old fights. It’s not like watching them today make me whistle like I’m seeing a bunch of lost skills that are unattainable by today’s fighters. Might as well ask what happened to the art of the clinch? Cause there sure was a lot of that going on back in the day too.
Don’t get me wrong I’m a huge Floyd fan since he he turned pro. Seen him live. I love the shoulder roll, because only a select few can do it well enough to make it worth while. The high guard that Winky Wright and Arthur Abraham used to great effect seems simple enough, why aren’t more fighters trying to pull that off?

[ShoulderRoll]

Do you want me to say it’s because fighters are slower, weaker, less intelligent, poorly trained... less good trainers, less fighters, regressing of knowledge? It’s not surprising that the best reflexes fighter in Floyd was the modern fighter that could pull it off. So the shoulder roll is front and present. Every boxer has practiced it for sure in the modern era. Clearly you have to be great at it to make it worthwhile against today’s top fighters. So one argument is that fighters were better athletes with better reflexes back in the day with better trainers?Or maybe fighters have found ways to outperform against the shoulder roll? It has been around for a long time as you said. So maybe the evolution was that more fighters found ways to beat it than fighters found reasons to maintain it? If it was still as effective a style for everyone to master then why did it fade out of favour? Ive watched a lot of old fights. It’s not like watching them today make me whistle like I’m seeing a bunch of lost skills that are unattainable by today’s fighters. Might as well ask what happened to the art of the clinch? Cause there sure was a lot of that going on back in the day too.
Don’t get me wrong I’m a huge Floyd fan since he he turned pro. Seen him live. I love the shoulder roll, because only a select few can do it well enough to make it worth while. The high guard that Winky Wright and Arthur Abraham used to great effect seems simple enough, why aren’t more fighters trying to pull that off?

Fighters are poorly trained, there are less good trainers, and knowledge has regressed. That is the correct answer.

Nothing to do with intelligence or athleticism.

[Blond Beast]

Fighters are poorly trained, there are less good trainers, and knowledge has regressed. That is the correct answer.

Nothing to do with intelligence or athleticism.

I have no problem with that answer. The future/present brings all sorts of its own issues. There’s a tendency to put down the past ways to promote future methods to sound smart or evolved if you are selling your skills as any sort of trainer. Obviously this isn’t everyone though. But look at all the “fitness experts” on YouTube now. There’s a whole subculture and business based on these guys all disagreeing with each other. They spout speudo science based on very limited case studies with minimal subjects involved. They have to keep putting out videos to make money, so how many times can they post “The right way to train arms” or “if you’re doing this you’re doing it wrong” videos... everything becomes so contradictory. Don’t get me started on all the “drug” gurus out there also. Young kids regurgitating old flawed studies with tiny test pools they found repeated on the internet. Anywho I didn’t mean to come off track or try and pull a 180. I’m just trying look at it how you put it and use my own references. There’s more of a quagmire to wade through than ever before. Less honestly and accountability too. More hype, more marketing, more bull****. But I believe that the present still has the potential to create the best trainer. The percentage of good vs bad trainers has decreased significantly. There still has be the potential for those few people that can actually learn from all that was done before them and check their ego and be the best culmination of knowledge for their fighter. Course that’s just in theory.