Bottom Line. Do you think GGG can beat Canelo at 155?

[techliam]

That's the thing, it doesn't. The ABC titles have rankings, sanction bodies, mandatories, they have rules.

The Lineage doesn't. The Lineal is just simply tracing the Lineage. No more no less.

Another poster said it earlier, the Lineal titles credibility is getting weaker by the day. For this reason exactly.

Yes we are saying the same thing. Lineal titles also use rules and rankings, but its beside the point. I meant lineal titles should be held to the same scrutiny as any other title (legitimised) - i.e its really the fighter who makes the title, not the other way around

Its a severe flaw that needs revising. It was a good idea in theory, but in practice it really does fall short. I personally think the championship system is flawed inherently, but thats my view. I think we should have something like Snooker - where they have rankings as well as a world championship. Being World no.1 and World Champion are two different things. Where two different fighters hold these titles, its time for them to fight. Its never going to happen though

[Buckfever]

Golovkin weighed 165 at 30 day weighin in his last fight. Him moving up isn't an issue because he has no problem making 160. I think it's funny people demand for him to move up when he makes middleweight with ease. Fighter like Danny Garcia is a perfect example of "having to move up a weight class" because he spent almost two years fighting phony catchweights above junior welterweight. Eventually Danny will fight a real welterweight and get sparked the fk out.

I don't disagree with you. He's going to have to move up because there will be nothing for him at middleweight. This is a business and he doesn't have unlimited time.

[Finito2K]

Seriously. A catchweight of 155 lbs. makes this a Jr. Middleweight bout with a one pound allowance.

[i'm a fun haver]

Froch has actually been in with elite opponents. He was matched tough.

Froch ran his mouth about fighting Golovkin, got called on it and chose to retire rather than find out lol.
Froch would've got everything he was asking for. Hometown fight on HBO PPV and the lion's share of the money and he did not want it.
All the names on his resume won't change that.

[ShoulderRoll]

Lineal titles have to be legitimised the same way ABC titles do

The sole aim for a world title is to show the best. It's a severe flaw in the lineal system that prevents it from being prevalent in the sport

An argument can be made that a lineal title is already legitimized, due to the fact that it was obtained by beating the man who had previously beaten the man etc.

If there weren't so many "world championships" floating around the fact is that Golovkin wouldn't have any belts around his waist. He'd have to beat Canelo to be called the real middleweight champion.

[techliam]

An argument can be made that a lineal title is already legitimized, due to the fact that it was obtained by beating the man who had previously beaten the man etc.

If there weren't so many "world championships" floating around the fact is that Golovkin wouldn't have any belts around his waist. He'd have to beat Canelo to be called the real middleweight champion.

Thats an excuse not to think. Taking lineal at face value. There's no argument to be made that you can't analyse a situation for what it is, and place value on it based on that. You're accepting the lineal system has no flaws worth taking into account.

Its interesting that you equate lineal to 'real'. 'Real' to me is consensus based on actual achievements, not a lineal system that a minority seem to cling onto religiously, as its sometimes better than the ABC system. We all know lineal doesn't mean consensus - its better when people accept its just another form of championship thats subject to the same scrutiny as ABC titles. In Canelo's case, the lineal title has become illegitimate and he hasn't done anything to correct it. As of now, I really don't see the difference between Canelo's lineal title, and Saunder's WBO title.

As for Canelo being the champion without all the belts in boxing, I doubt he would be. It's a strange argument as noone can say for sure what the boxing landscape would have been with all the top contenders vying for one title, but I can argue with some confidence it wouldn't look like it does now

[HeroBando]

Thats an excuse not to think. Taking lineal at face value. There's no argument to be made that you can't analyse a situation for what it is, and place value on it based on that. You're accepting the lineal system has no flaws worth taking into account.

Its interesting that you equate lineal to 'real'. 'Real' to me is consensus based on actual achievements, not a lineal system that a minority seem to cling onto religiously, as its sometimes better than the ABC system. We all know lineal doesn't mean consensus - its better when people accept its just another form of championship thats subject to the same scrutiny as ABC titles. In Canelo's case, the lineal title has become illegitimate and he hasn't done anything to correct it. As of now, I really don't see the difference between Canelo's lineal title, and Saunder's WBO title.

As for Canelo being the champion without all the belts in boxing, I doubt he would be. It's a strange argument as noone can say for sure what the boxing landscape would have been with all the top contenders vying for one title, but I can argue with some confidence it wouldn't look like it does now

There's a big difference between Bjs and Canelo titles. One won it at 160, and has no problem defending it there. Other guy won it at 155, and demands a 5lb handicap from the challengers. Clearly Saunders' is more legit

[ShoulderRoll]

Thats an excuse not to think. Taking lineal at face value. There's no argument to be made that you can't analyse a situation for what it is, and place value on it based on that. You're accepting the lineal system has no flaws worth taking into account.

Its interesting that you equate lineal to 'real'. 'Real' to me is consensus based on actual achievements, not a lineal system that a minority seem to cling onto religiously, as its sometimes better than the ABC system. We all know lineal doesn't mean consensus - its better when people accept its just another form of championship thats subject to the same scrutiny as ABC titles. In Canelo's case, the lineal title has become illegitimate and he hasn't done anything to correct it. As of now, I really don't see the difference between Canelo's lineal title, and Saunder's WBO title.

As for Canelo being the champion without all the belts in boxing, I doubt he would be. It's a strange argument as noone can say for sure what the boxing landscape would have been with all the top contenders vying for one title, but I can argue with some confidence it wouldn't look like it does now

Canelo got his title by beating Cotto who got it by beating Sergio Martinez who got it by beating Kelly Pavlik who got it by beating Jermain Taylor who got it by beating Bernard Hopkins.

BJS got his title by beating Andy Lee who got it by beating Matt Korobov for a vacated title.

I'll leave it to others to decide which accomplishments seem more impressive but in terms of a respected and legitimate line of titlists there is no comparison.

Also, I don't agree with what Canelo is doing but I didn't agree with what Golovkin's team did either when they told Andre Ward to accept 164 if he wanted the fight. And that same team claimed they would fight anybody from 154 to 168.

So one can't really cry crocodile tears for GGG.

[techliam]

Canelo got his title by beating Cotto who got it by beating Sergio Martinez who got it by beating Kelly Pavlik who got it by beating Jermain Taylor who got it by beating Bernard Hopkins.

BJS got his title by beating Andy Lee who got it by beating Matt Korobov for a vacated title.

I'll leave it to others to decide which accomplishments seem more impressive but in terms of a respected and legitimate line of titlists there is no comparison.

Also, I don't agree with what Canelo is doing but I didn't agree with what Golovkin's team did either when they told Andre Ward to accept 164 if he wanted the fight. And that same team claimed they would fight anybody from 154 to 168.

So one can't really cry crocodile tears for GGG.

So like I said, you're listing names with no analysis whatsoever. Analyse the lineage for what it is : Hopkins-Taylor-Pavlik-Martinez-Cotto-Canelo, the consensus fell off somewhere in there but you seem content in ignoring it for the sake of a lineage that speaks nothing other than there is a lineage. In an odd way, we're giving Canelo credit for Hopkin's reign as some lineage links them. Hopkins made his championship by fighting the best, and the same should apply to Canelo - legitimising it. How is this any different if say it wasn't a mythical 'lineal' title in question, but an IBF title? The same scrutiny stands. Theres no excuse not to think.

Saunders beat Andy Lee, who proved he was just as good as Quillin, solid top 5 middleweights. Canelo beat a smaller Cotto at 155, and where Cotto was ranked I have no idea, but top 5 too seems fair. Theres no difference to me. Yet Golovkin has beaten a fair list of top 5 middleweights in Lemieux, Murray, Geale and Rubio, with wins over other top 10 contenders. He may not be recognised under the mythical lineal system, but his championships seem a hell of a lot more legitimate to me. This is what I think people should do, look at what championships are legitimised through actual achievements, whether lineal or ABC or whatever, instead of clinging religiously onto a system that has embarrassed itself quite badly quite recently.

[mick1303]

Canelo got his title by beating Cotto who got it by beating Sergio Martinez who got it by beating Kelly Pavlik who got it by beating Jermain Taylor who got it by beating Bernard Hopkins.

BJS got his title by beating Andy Lee who got it by beating Matt Korobov for a vacated title.

I'll leave it to others to decide which accomplishments seem more impressive but in terms of a respected and legitimate line of titlists there is no comparison.

Also, I don't agree with what Canelo is doing but I didn't agree with what Golovkin's team did either when they told Andre Ward to accept 164 if he wanted the fight. And that same team claimed they would fight anybody from 154 to 168.

So one can't really cry crocodile tears for GGG.

Except Martinez was the last one, who won the title at full MW limit. Cotto already reduced the value of it by making Martinez come in 159 (not to mention that Martinez was crippled, not to mention that he won vs Murray only by hometown decision). Canelo further de-legitimized it by fighting at 155 limit. Not much left of it, truth be told...