Appreciation thread" Black Murderers Row and the uncrowned champions of boxing

[therealpugilist]

"This thread is a tribute to them and all the fighters of all races and creeds"



I was just sayin he's 1/2 puerto rican


No I haven't... only thing I ever found was this vid on youtube

i know i know lol...I had a moment, excuse me bro.....Old timers think that Ray Robinson avoided Cocoa Kid and Charley Burlry...been searching for footage of the keed for years.

[bigjavi973]

i know i know lol...I had a moment, excuse me bro.....Old timers think that Ray Robinson avoided Cocoa Kid and Charley Burlry...been searching for footage of the keed for years.

That's what I've read. It was the same for other "world champs" that they wouldn't fight the "colored champs"

[elfag]

bein' "puerto rican" is a NATIONALITY not a RACE
thats just like sayin' somebody is half "american" half white.

you know exactly what he means. stop being a politically correct nanny

[therealpugilist]

you know exactly what he means. stop being a politically correct nanny

is a nanny a titty?

[Eastcoast]

Always intrigued on Charley Burley, maybe the greatest fighter to never win a world title. Reminds me of one of Breadman's old mailbags on Burley/Robinson.

What good with you Breadman!? I'm a long time reader of the mailbags & appreciate what you & G. Leon do. I saw your answer to a sender about the G.O.A.T. Sugar Ray Robinson. I love watching old school fights like you do & wanted to put you on the spot so to speak. I see you answered a question from a sender about SRR & Money which I agree with Robinson winning & probably by a big margin. My question is who would win: SRR vs Charley Burley? You're a student of the game so I know you know who he is.
Sean

Bread’s Response: How ironic you asked me this question. I actually had this conversation with a mentor of mine in boxing. I only have two mentors in boxing, so I really value his opinion. He told me that Floyd has a shot a Robinson and that Robinson “ducked” Burley. Robinson beats Floyd. I’m not sure if he blows him out, but he beats him. Too dynamic of a puncher. Robinson is not only one of the hardest punchers ever, but he could be the best. I have never seen such a mix of speed, one punch power, two fisted power, head and body power and combination punching. I’m glad we agree on Robinson and Mayweather , I just think the bigger, taller, tougher Robinson forces Floyd into too many exchanges.
Now before I get into Burley and Robinson, I want to speak about the myth that Robinson “ducked “ Burley. I never got a chance to finish my conversation with my mentor. Charley Burley and many members of Black Murderer’s Row were bigger and older than Ray Robinson. Burley was born in 1917, Robbie in 1921. Charley Burley fought from 1936 to 1950. This myth that Robinson never gave Burley a title is false. Robinson did not even win the middleweight title until 1951 in the St. Valentine’s Day Massacre against Jake Lamotta. So that myth is wrong. Robinson’s name gets picked out of the hat because he was the best. Tony Zale was the middleweight champion during Burley’s prime, then Marcel Cerdan then Jake Lamotta. Not Sugar Ray Robinson.


Now some say Robinson ducked Burley as a welterweight and never gave him a title fight at welterweight. That’s another myth. Don’t take my word, do research and check www.boxrec.com. Burley was a full fledge middleweight by 1941. Robinson turned pro at 134lbs in 1940. Burley famously lost to Holman Williams in 1942 for the “Colored Middleweight Title”. Robinson himself was boxed out of a title shot until 1946. He didn’t get a title shot at the welterweight title until he was 73-1-1. The War put the title on stall, not Robinson. Burley had been a middleweight for 6 years by the time Robinson won the welterweight title. So where did the “duck” come in? I suppose Robinson could have fought Burley in a non title catchweight fight, but dam that’s a stretch to call that ducking. In today’s terms would James Kirkland be ducking Andre Direll? I have never heard a duck, where the fighters were NOT champions and in two different divisions.


I don’t believe you can duck a man that’s not in your division. Just like Pacquiao and Mayweather are NOT ducking Sergio Martinez right now. Now for the match up itself. Make no mistake Charley Burley is the real deal. In my opinion the best fighter ever to never have won a title. Probably top 25 to 30 fighters ever. He can do it all , he wasn’t as flashy or athletic as Robinson, he had a SUBTLE brilliance. There is a piece on youtube about Burley called Analyzing Genius, check it out. He’s fighting a BIG middleweight for the time named Oakland Billy Smith in 1945 and 1946.


I believe Burley would push Robinson to the brink. This fight would look a lot like Sugar Ray Leonard vs Wilfred Benitez in my opinion but more competitive. Benitez was as skillful as Leonard but not as dynamic and not a harder puncher. Burley’s chin is better than Benitez’s and I don’t think he would get stopped. But Robinson’s brilliant combinations would carry the day and I have him winning a close but clear 15 round decision.

http://www.boxing talk.com/pag/article.php?aid=22229

[therealpugilist]

That's what I've read. It was the same for other "world champs" that they wouldn't fight the "colored champs"

thats why its such a hypocrisy when newbies on this site say " the fighters of the past were better because they fought the best!!"....thats Bull**** when the mob ran boxing, fighters were handcuffed in fights in the no decision era, some fighters couldnt win fights unless it was a knockout in their fight contract.

Whether people believe it or not, I think fighters of the past 30-40 years have fought the best competition....even today fighters are forced to fight ranked guys, defend titles more often, no color line drawn, no IBU(Mob) ran sanctioning body or Champs freezing out titles.

I think fighters today have to fight better fighters in a shorter amount of time. A lot of the greats with 100+ fights fought a lot of fighters with less than 10-20 pro fights, losing records, or were paid losers.

[elfag]

[B]

This is amazing stuff. Im watching this guy fight and I see bits of Hopkins, SRR and Floyd here. This guy is a master and I never seen him before.

[soul_survivor]

thats why its such a hypocrisy when newbies on this site say " the fighters of the past were better because they fought the best!!"....thats Bull**** when the mob ran boxing, fighters were handcuffed in fights in the no decision era, some fighters couldnt win fights unless it was a knockout in their fight contract.

Whether people believe it or not, I think fighters of the past 30-40 years have fought the best competition....even today fighters are forced to fight ranked guys, defend titles more often, no color line drawn, no IBU(Mob) ran sanctioning body or Champs freezing out titles.

I think fighters today have to fight better fighters in a shorter amount of time. A lot of the greats with 100+ fights fought a lot of fighters with less than 10-20 pro fights, losing records, or were paid losers.

You're picking out the exception, rather than the rule. If you want to keep in line with the topic of the thread, i.e. TBMR, then you have to remember race relations in America at the time. No boxing organisation in America and very few outside of it, would allow a consistent stream of black challengers for the welter or middle titles, where most of these guys fought. Heck, it took Robinson over half a decade and 70+ fights to get a shot at the welter crown and he was regarded by most as the greatest fighter on the planet. Lesser known names had far less of a chance.

Having said all that, look at the names Robinson, Pep, LaMotta, Charles, Moore and co DID fight at the time and the wins they DID achieve. Over the course of a year, they'd fight 3 or 4 legitimate challengers or championship quality fighters, with the rest being filler. Nowadays, we have guys fighting maybe, if they are ballsy enough, one top level guy a year and then sitting it out or spending the next 18 months fighting bums.

There's a world of difference, stop using your personal agenda to re-write a pretty simple history.

[therealpugilist]

You're picking out the exception, rather than the rule. If you want to keep in line with the topic of the thread, i.e. TBMR, then you have to remember race relations in America at the time. No boxing organisation in America and very few outside of it, would allow a consistent stream of black challengers for the welter or middle titles, where most of these guys fought. Heck, it took Robinson over half a decade and 70+ fights to get a shot at the welter crown and he was regarded by most as the greatest fighter on the planet. Lesser known names had far less of a chance.

Having said all that, look at the names Robinson, Pep, LaMotta, Charles, Moore and co DID fight at the time and the wins they DID achieve. Over the course of a year, they'd fight 3 or 4 legitimate challengers or championship quality fighters, with the rest being filler. Nowadays, we have guys fighting maybe, if they are ballsy enough, one top level guy a year and then sitting it out or spending the next 18 months fighting bums.

There's a world of difference, stop using your personal agenda to re-write a pretty simple history.

the point is boxing has always been a business...its called prizefighting for a reason


I understand the racial climate of the time but I also know that the statement ," the old time greats fought the best!" is complete bull**** when boxing was even more corrupt in the past and there were a lot more fighters, meaning a lot more fighters that werent very good to use as gatekeepers and record padders...A lot of the fighters who earned title shots didnt recieve titleshots so pulling , and others drew the color line


Robinson himself fought over welterweight most of the time he held the welterweight title and fought Lamotta in the early 40s and LaMotta was a middleweight...he actually fought a few guys in the murderers row....Robinson didnt...robinson earned his way but he was also nitpicky about opponents, money, venue and was a bit of a diva


I have no agenda

[therealpugilist]

This is amazing stuff. Im watching this guy fight and I see bits of Hopkins, SRR and Floyd here. This guy is a master and I never seen him before.

definitely....he reminds me a lot of floyd.....He uses both his shoulders well on defense and he has that counter right in a holster.



This guy would dominate at welterweight today...so much know how and subtitles