The 'PBC Underdog Effect'?

[glenn mcrory]

I don't see how thats the case. PBC's showing the best fights on a regular basis better than anyone in the business outside of HBO Boxing. And the volume of PBC fights is beating everyone. If HBO had PBC's TV schedule they'd be showing Gabe Rosado's roadwork at this point.

Oh, were we talking about fights shown? I meant when their stables actually fought, as in, in the ring.
I was talking about this.

Dirrell< Degale
Russell< Lomachenko
Porter< Brook
Kameda< Mcdonnell
Martinez< Salido
Figueroa< Burns

And you can argue Burns won that last one.

You just don't dig boxing than. PBC has one of the best stables in the business. HBO is #1. You could easily argue TR has the #2 stable. Who's got a better stable than PBC besides those two en******? Please name those stables cuz I'd love to watch those guys more if I'm sleeping on them.

Stable quality shouldn't only be based on actual fighter quality, but success against the best as well. They are a lot less successful in this regard.

Plenty of good fighters lower on the scale that don't belong to any of these.
Plenty of guys in unglamorous divisions. For that many overall fighters, he should have better ones IMO. Seems like he only cares about certain divisions like 147. Like I said, it'll be hard to stake his claim when all he has are the B-teams.

I think PBC is going for both. I think they are achieving that right now too. Who's putting on more shows with more world class fighters + keeping up a HBO standard of 1 big elite vs elite fighter type fight a month? I'd say PBC is leader in this. No question HBO has a more quality product overall still, but PBC is doing a solid job of being #2 to HBO already only 7 months into their creation.

Okay, the show thing you keep bringing up, that wasn't really my argument.

I think Thurman is more than a prospect. I think he's a top 3 guy at 147. I think most would agree. With Manny not winning vs a legit 147 contender in quite awhile & Floyd out of the sport I think if Thurman beats Porter this year one could argue he's the best guy at 147.

Yeah he's a good fighter.
At 147.
Being the best at 147 doesn't automatically make you the best overall.
Theres other weight classes you know, filled with much better and proven fighters. When people are looking to so desperately sell someone's prospects, they must clearly not have something for now.

But sure there are a ton of on the verge guys in the PBC roster to guys who are 1-0 prospects. Thats why PBC is a long game plan & won't be sinking or swimming in a year or two & is still gonna be gradually improving over the next couple years which is why where they have already gotten is impressive. Wait til more guys start drifting over to PBC when their promoter contracts expire cuz PBC has so many TV options. What til the 2016 Olympians run over to PBC to make their pro debuts on national TV & are able to fight their entire careers on TV in front of 300k to 1M to 3M fans each time out instead of some small casino off TV card in Ohio in front of 300 people. This isn't even a finished product yet is what I'm saying & its in contention in every category even if it doesn't have a belt yet.

The problem is how many of those guys "on the verge" ever actually make it?
There's a reason the word "hypejob" exists. Too many 0's. Too many guys scared to take a risk. Too many coddled on the way up and gifted decisions and titles. There's too much hype on unproven prospects nowadays, and the more of these that get exposed(something Haymon seems to be wizard of), the more desperate everyone gets and the lower the standard for these prospects get. Meaning guys that are way worse are getting more hype. I'm hearing names like Troy King and Gervonta Davis now, guys no one would've ever been brought up if guys like Broner and Berto had panned out.

[Eff Pandas]

Oh, were we talking about fights shown? I meant when their stables actually fought, as in, in the ring.
I was talking about this.

Dirrell< Degale
Russell< Lomachenko
Porter< Brook
Kameda< Mcdonnell
Martinez< Salido
Figueroa< Burns

And you can argue Burns won that last one.

Idk why that even matters. As everyone says when you fight top guys you're gonna lose. De La Hoya knows this probably better than anyone else in the business today cuz he matches his guys so tough with guys outside his promotion. He's getting talked about like he's some promotional superbrain cuz he's matched up his 3 top guys in fights they could all seemingly lose (one for one on L's so far, likely two for two on L's by Sunday) & previously he was lining up his roster to lose to Mayweather (who wasn't signed to GBP) yet somehow PBC just has a subpar stable when they do the same or similar (also a few of those fights are pre-PBC, this would be like talking about HBO losing points cuz Pacquiao got knocked out pre-HBO or Loma losing).

Yeah he's a good fighter.
At 147.
Being the best at 147 doesn't automatically make you the best overall.
Theres other weight classes you know, filled with much better and proven fighters. When people are looking to so desperately sell someone's prospects, they must clearly not have something for now.

All a fighter can expect to be is the best fighter in his division. All the other P4P or ATG stuff is just guys that don't fight subjective nerd bull**** that mostly matters to other guys who don't fight.

The problem is how many of those guys "on the verge" ever actually make it?
There's a reason the word "hypejob" exists. Too many 0's. Too many guys scared to take a risk. Too many coddled on the way up and gifted decisions and titles. There's too much hype on unproven prospects nowadays, and the more of these that get exposed(something Haymon seems to be wizard of), the more desperate everyone gets and the lower the standard for these prospects get. Meaning guys that are way worse are getting more hype. I'm hearing names like Troy King and Gervonta Davis now, guys no one would've ever been brought up if guys like Broner and Berto had panned out.

Most of those guys on the verge don't make it. Thats pretty much how that works no matter their affiliation. This is the thing everyone deals with.

Maybe Everton Lopes goes somewhere or maybe he doesn't, but GBP likes him to potentially do something right now & figure he's worth trying out to maybe become the guy or a guy worth fighting other top guys GBP has that do become the guy.

Ivan Najera is even a better example with TR. He's a guy a blind man could see was gonna be good, but not great (maybe a poorman's Gatti at best), yet TR picked him up & he's had a nice run & was fed to a better TR guy & will likely be done that way for the rest of his career with TR or til TR has used him up & dropped him or he retires.

Thing is PBC has a TON of guys like this & they are already being matched up (think there's been about 2 or 3 of those types prospect vs prospect fights a month lately) & eventually someone is gonna come thru that gambit & still be undefeated or heavily considered & he'll a guy people will talk about.

Most of these guys will fail regardless of if they are with GBP, TR or PBC so that situation is what it is, but odds are PBC will have more of those guys who turn out to be the next big thing or just the next champion. And its worth noting that PBC will likely attract many if not most of the 2016 Olympians who are looking to fight on TV in the US that will be the guys who become the next big things at a higher rate as is the norm.

[daggum]

pbc fighters just suck. what more can you say. they are given easy fights and consistently lose or look terrible. can you imagine kovalev and ggg losing or looking bad against monroe and mohamaddi? what's so funny is that then pbc defenders come back on here and say the pbc fighters are being matched tough as if we don't know the quality of opposition they are facing. sorry not everyone is as delusional as you are. eric molina isn't a good heavyweight, aaron martinez isn't a good welterweight, getting dropped by mora is embarrassing etc...these guys are treated so soft that they become soft. millions of dollars for easy fights drains them of any passion they once had. why try hard when you know you are going to get that easy money every time?

[glenn mcrory]

Idk why that even matters.

Its called leverage. When that WBO title became vacant after Salido failed to make weight. Two interested parties showed up. Haymon and Arum. Haymon sent who he thought had the best chance in his roster, which was Russell jr. Arum sent Lomachenko. Come fight night, even winning the purse bid and having bought corrupt judges couldn't help Russell win that title amidst the beatdown he endured in the fight. He had to sacrifice one of his own guys, Gonzales, to get him a title. Only one title instead of two. Trust me, if he felt he had someone more capable of taking that title, he would've sent him instead.

As everyone says when you fight top guys you're gonna lose. De La Hoya knows this probably better than anyone else in the business today cuz he matches his guys so tough with guys outside his promotion. He's getting talked about like he's some promotional superbrain cuz he's matched up his 3 top guys in fights they could all seemingly lose (one for one on L's so far, likely two for two on L's by Sunday) & previously he was lining up his roster to lose to Mayweather (who wasn't signed to GBP) yet somehow PBC just has a subpar stable when they do the same or similar (also a few of those fights are pre-PBC, this would be like talking about HBO losing points cuz Pacquiao got knocked out pre-HBO or Loma losing).

De la Hoya's stable got ravaged, he doesn't have ****. Hes matching them up tough because he doesn't a choice. Hes moving his prospects at a brisk pace because he needs guys at a level to challenge at the top as soon as possible.
The Mayweather fights he thought his fighters could win, but a loss to him doesn't really damage your reputation or career, so thats not a very risky move IMO.

All a fighter can expect to be is the best fighter in his division. All the other P4P or ATG stuff is just guys that don't fight subjective nerd bull**** that mostly matters to other guys who don't fight.



Most of those guys on the verge don't make it. Thats pretty much how that works no matter their affiliation. This is the thing everyone deals with.

Maybe Everton Lopes goes somewhere or maybe he doesn't, but GBP likes him to potentially do something right now & figure he's worth trying out to maybe become the guy or a guy worth fighting other top guys GBP has that do become the guy.

Ivan Najera is even a better example with TR. He's a guy a blind man could see was gonna be good, but not great (maybe a poorman's Gatti at best), yet TR picked him up & he's had a nice run & was fed to a better TR guy & will likely be done that way for the rest of his career with TR or til TR has used him up & dropped him or he retires.

Guys like Najera are brought in specifically to be fed to the better guys. Najera was never anything more than an average fighter, he just had a pretty looking record. Look how much extra hype Verdejo got by beating someone like him. Najera hasn't shown hes anything worth writing home about, but its easy to fool people.

Thing is PBC has a TON of guys like this & they are already being matched up (think there's been about 2 or 3 of those types prospect vs prospect fights a month lately) & eventually someone is gonna come thru that gambit & still be undefeated or heavily considered & he'll a guy people will talk about.

Most of these guys will fail regardless of if they are with GBP, TR or PBC so that situation is what it is, but odds are PBC will have more of those guys who turn out to be the next big thing or just the next champion.

Yeah...no. Just no.
What precedent is there for this exactly?
Haymon has been on the scene, behind the scenes for ages now and has not done **** in the sport. Hes more known for bringing up failed media hypejob laughing stocks like Broner than actual world-caliber fighters.
By track records, Top Rank seems to at least have some precedent of being better talent scouts and generally do well on the world stage in fights.

And its worth noting that PBC will likely attract many if not most of the 2016 Olympians who are looking to fight on TV in the US that will be the guys who become the next big things at a higher rate as is the norm.

Why, why is that worth noting?
Why, so I can laugh at it?
Haven't the abysmal performances of the 2012 Olympians done enough to scare you away?
Cam Awesome? Yeah, no.
The guys who will become the next big things are already here, and they are right in front of us. We may know some and not others who will later emerge, but I do know one thing about them.
They are not signed with Haymon.

[SlySlickSmooth]

I bet these guys are tired of hearing Al Haymon be thanked so they train harder.

[STAX ON DECK]

pbc keeps putting great boxing matches all the itme,i see nothing to hate on at all

great nigh of boxing for the PBC brand

[Eff Pandas]

De la Hoya's stable got ravaged, he doesn't have ****. Hes matching them up tough because he doesn't a choice. Hes moving his prospects at a brisk pace because he needs guys at a level to challenge at the top as soon as possible.

I think GBP has a reputation for matching their guys tougher than any other promoter. So you can suggest he has no choice right now, but I suspect if he had 20 big name guys, these same fights, & probably some other big fights, would still be happening.

Guys like Najera are brought in specifically to be fed to the better guys. Najera was never anything more than an average fighter, he just had a pretty looking record. Look how much extra hype Verdejo got by beating someone like him. Najera hasn't shown hes anything worth writing home about, but its easy to fool people.

This is the thing that frustrates me with boxing fans. I got disdain for most boxing fans for their lack of understanding the levels in boxing. To most boxing fans there's 2 maybe 3 A fighters in a division, then the #5 guy is a C fighter & then everyone else are just bs guys. Most boxing fans seem to think a guy like Najera is average which is nonsense. Najera was never average nor is he average now. He's a good fighter. He's a guy who could win a title at some point & I'd bet he's a guy who'll fight for a title at some point. He's never gonna be the #1 guy, but most guys won't be the #1 guy. He probably won't win a title, but most guys don't win a title. I think he will fight for a title, but most guys don't even get that far, so he's way ahead of the game just based on that.

Yeah...no. Just no.
What precedent is there for this exactly?
Haymon has been on the scene, behind the scenes for ages now and has not done **** in the sport. Hes more known for bringing up failed media hypejob laughing stocks like Broner than actual world-caliber fighters.
By track records, Top Rank seems to at least have some precedent of being better talent scouts and generally do well on the world stage in fights.

I'd hope TR has better proven talent. They've been around since the 70's & have worked with 100's of fighters from the ground up. PBC has been around for 7 months. Haymon has been around for awhile, but I don't really think he's worked with many guys from the ground up like he's been doing since PBC has started or shortly before PBC started so its a bit early to suggest they can't bring guys up from nowhere to somewhere. But they won't be surpassing TR anytime soon cuz TR has decades in the game doing this so even if PBC had a 84 Olympic team caliber success by 2020 it wouldn't surpass TR's history.

Why, why is that worth noting?
Why, so I can laugh at it?
Haven't the abysmal performances of the 2012 Olympians done enough to scare you away?
Cam Awesome? Yeah, no.
The guys who will become the next big things are already here, and they are right in front of us. We may know some and not others who will later emerge, but I do know one thing about them.
They are not signed with Haymon.

The Olympics are guys from all over the world brother. TR picked up the best of the class of 2012 & I think the best among them were all non-US guys (tbh idk that Arum signed one US Olympian or if he did he ****** at hyping him or that guy really ****** cuz I'm not recalling him rn). But if you don't think the class of 2016 won't see the upside of signing with the guy with 7 or 8 TV deals & who's known for overpaying boxers you are being naive.

And then we can talk about the upside to Haymon's roster after Haymon has went thru an Olympic class & won or loss more clearly in acquiring talent. Plus lets not act like there aren't some guys who could capture titles or the publics imagination in the future already with PBC. I like Beterbeiv (who I suspect has the potential to get a GGG like following at some point), Erickson Lubin, Ievgen Khytrov & Errol Spence to be contending for titles in the next year or two & being among the top ten for sure & imo top 3 caliber guys at some point. Probably could argue Beterbiev is in the top 3 now, but 175 isn't the deepest division either. And its hard to argue that guys like Thurman, the Charlo brother who can punch & even Broner still (who even tho he "sucks" apparently has been among the top 3 in every division he's fought at cept 147 by many if not most indie rankings), aren't on the edge of becoming guys who can be the "next guy" people follow or could be the #1 guy in their divisions.

[glenn mcrory]

I think GBP has a reputation for matching their guys tougher than any other promoter. So you can suggest he has no choice right now, but I suspect if he had 20 big name guys, these same fights, & probably some other big fights, would still be happening.

Maybe. Maybe thats just the way he is. Though IMO he really just needs to stay afloat right now. He really needs Canelo to win. If he loses than his only other chances are guys like JoJo and Frankie Gomez. JoJo might not have what it takes and fatboy really just doesn't want to box.

This is the thing that frustrates me with boxing fans. I got disdain for most boxing fans for their lack of understanding the levels in boxing. To most boxing fans there's 2 maybe 3 A fighters in a division, then the #5 guy is a C fighter & then everyone else are just bs guys. Most boxing fans seem to think a guy like Najera is average which is nonsense. Najera was never average nor is he average now. He's a good fighter. He's a guy who could win a title at some point & I'd bet he's a guy who'll fight for a title at some point. He's never gonna be the #1 guy, but most guys won't be the #1 guy. He probably won't win a title, but most guys don't win a title. I think he will fight for a title, but most guys don't even get that far, so he's way ahead of the game just based on that.

I guess we'll just agree to disagree on this one. I remember watching the unimas cards and thinking to myself "why did TR sign this guy?" while he struggled with some random on the undercard.
When you say win a title, you mean like a FECARBOX or regional title right?
No way he'll ever win an actual legit title. And if he does challenge for one, he'll look like Chris Avalos did when he challenged for one.

I'd hope TR has better proven talent. They've been around since the 70's & have worked with 100's of fighters from the ground up. PBC has been around for 7 months. Haymon has been around for awhile, but I don't really think he's worked with many guys from the ground up like he's been doing since PBC has started or shortly before PBC started so its a bit early to suggest they can't bring guys up from nowhere to somewhere. But they won't be surpassing TR anytime soon cuz TR has decades in the game doing this so even if PBC had a 84 Olympic team caliber success by 2020 it wouldn't surpass TR's history.

Okay, valid points. I'll lower my expectations a bit for the moment then.

The Olympics are guys from all over the world brother. TR picked up the best of the class of 2012 & I think the best among them were all non-US guys (tbh idk that Arum signed one US Olympian or if he did he ****** at hyping him or that guy really ****** cuz I'm not recalling him rn). But if you don't think the class of 2016 won't see the upside of signing with the guy with 7 or 8 TV deals & who's known for overpaying boxers you are being naive.

I must've come across wrong. There's a lot of great talent at the olympics.
Just to me, it looks like Haymon is just interested in the US ones. Theres always been at the very least solid olympians, but it always seems like everyone else always gets the best ones. And I know he has the money to compete for them, just doesn't seem that interested and IMO you can't be picky like that in boxing. You snatch them up from wherever the **** they happen to be from.

Oh, and the US olympian TR got was Jose Ramirez.

And then we can talk about the upside to Haymon's roster after Haymon has went thru an Olympic class & won or loss more clearly in acquiring talent. Plus lets not act like there aren't some guys who could capture titles or the publics imagination in the future already with PBC. I like Beterbeiv (who I suspect has the potential to get a GGG like following at some point), Erickson Lubin, Ievgen Khytrov & Errol Spence to be contending for titles in the next year or two & being among the top ten for sure & imo top 3 caliber guys at some point. Probably could argue Beterbiev is in the top 3 now, but 175 isn't the deepest division either. And its hard to argue that guys like Thurman, the Charlo brother who can punch & even Broner still (who even tho he "sucks" apparently has been among the top 3 in every division he's fought at cept 147 by many if not most indie rankings), aren't on the edge of becoming guys who can be the "next guy" people follow or could be the #1 guy in their divisions.

I actually said I think he can do the most damage with Beterbiev in one of my original posts in this thread. I'm not sold on Spence and Lubin and to me, Khytrov is just way too basic and I think its to late to change him as a fighter.
Also, agree to disagree on Broner as I don't recall him being in the top 3 of any division except for maybe 135.
I think he loses to a lot of guys at 140.
Hell, IMO if he tries to unify his "title" with his interim champions' one, hes losing his.
What would that do to his ranking?
Maybe enough to get him to start to look at the help wanted ads.

[Eff Pandas]

Maybe. Maybe thats just the way he is. Though IMO he really just needs to stay afloat right now. He really needs Canelo to win. If he loses than his only other chances are guys like JoJo and Frankie Gomez. JoJo might not have what it takes and fatboy really just doesn't want to box.

I think boxing fans think L's are more damaging then they actually are. Canelo is going to be doing some damage in the PPV arena & the actual arena via ticket sales for a long time regardless if he loses to Cotto &/or GGG. Pacquiao took a few L's (one bs L) including one L where he got put to sleep. He still was selling tickets & PPV's & was later involved in the biggest fight in boxing history. A better example would probably be Chavez Jr. That guy is f#cking up all the time & under performing yet people still come out to watch him fight.

I guess we'll just agree to disagree on this one. I remember watching the unimas cards and thinking to myself "why did TR sign this guy?" while he struggled with some random on the undercard.
When you say win a title, you mean like a FECARBOX or regional title right?
No way he'll ever win an actual legit title. And if he does challenge for one, he'll look like Chris Avalos did when he challenged for one.

LOL. Nah man I mean I feel like he'll fight for one of the 6 or w/e "world" titles out there. I mean **** man Joey Gamache won a title, in fact two iirc so I don't think its that much more of a step to suggest Najera could win one, but I feel much more confident he'll have a title fight, where he very well could look like dog****, in his future.

I must've come across wrong. There's a lot of great talent at the olympics.
Just to me, it looks like Haymon is just interested in the US ones.

I think people aren't very in touch with Haymon's roster or how many 20 fight & under 3yr or less caliber pros with potential he gots. I think PBC has more Olympians than any other stable out there. I definitely think Haymon understands the value of having the best guys of the amateur talent pool on his roster.

Just looking at his boxrec page he's got: Tarver, Berto (Haiti), Taylor (assuming he's still gonna fight, which I hope isn't the case), Gary Russell, Audley Harrison (UK, is he still fighting?), Angulo (Mexico), Mares (Mexico), Spence, Wilder, Herring, Mike Hunter Jr, Khan (UK), Beibut Shumenov (Kazakstan), Martirosyan, Bika (Cameroon), John & Julius Jackson (****** Islands, Julian Jackson's sons), Leonard Bundu (Italy), Rau'Shee Warren, Marcus Browne, Beterbiev (Ukraine), McJoe Arroyo (PR), Derevyanchenko (Ukraine), Khytrov (Ukraine), Oscar Escandon (Columbia), Carlos Velasquez (PR), Eleider Alvarez (Columbia), Oscar Rivas (Columbia), DeGale (UK), Breazeale, Terrell Gausha Jonathan Gonzalez (PR) & Nyambayaryn Togstsogt (Mongolia).

Oh, and the US olympian TR got was Jose Ramirez.

Ahhhh damn. Yea forgot about him.

I actually said I think he can do the most damage with Beterbiev in one of my original posts in this thread. I'm not sold on Spence and Lubin and to me, Khytrov is just way too basic and I think its to late to change him as a fighter.

Hell there are guys who aren't sold on GGG yet & if he lost this weekend I'm sure there is gonna be a minority segment of vocal fans who'll outright call him a fraud. I can see some "GGG = Generic Geriatric Garbageman" or some such childish **** type threads popping up late Saturday night already. So I can't blame you for not being sold on these guys. But you shouldn't be sold on very many guys at this point anyway. I'm still comfortable saying all 4 will be champions & among the top 3 guys in their divisions at some point & I'm not big on shotcalling future title holders, but only time will tell us about what those guys are ultimately capable of.

[NEETzsche]

dibella has a good record for signing international talent and as we know he is basically in haymon's pocket now. he's been signing a bunch of ukrainians lately