Comments Thread For: WBC is Firm: Cotto-Canelo winner must face GGG next!

[HeroBando]

Dont be so ******.

Cotto won the WBC strap/lineage by winning a money fight with Martinez.

Are you not aware of that ?

You fanboy fascination with worthless ABC straps has turned you into an idiot.

OK idiot, a guy who weighs 153 is a middleweight.

OK then, whatever helps you sleep at night.

If he insists on holding on to the MW belt, he's a MW. If he's too small, should have dropped it on the spot. Instead he's #1 at MW in almost every ranking, and uses that belt for max leverage. Belts mean the world to pro boxers, ignoramus.

[toyboy33]

I'd vacate the belt like Floyd does and fight GGG when I got ready to.

[MDPopescu]

I'd vacate the belt like Floyd does and fight GGG when I got ready to.

Floyd didn't vacate -- he was stripped by the Ring...

[techliam]

There are several different sources of lineal title lists, but the Ring's lineal champions are the most widely recognised.

To keep hold of the Ring lineal title, all you need to do is successfully defend it against anybody in that division, within a period of not more than 2 years.

Andre Ward is still recognised as the lineal SMW champ by some sources, but the Ring stripped him of their lineal title in Feb, because he hadn't fought another SMW in over 2 years. So now, according to the Ring magazine, the lineal SMW title is vacant.

The winner of Cotto/Canelo could refuse to fight GGG and be stripped of the WBC belt, but still be recognised as lineal MW champ. Under those circumstances though, that wouldn't mean much.

Well you're right in a sense. A lineal title is only really added to a resume when its universally recognised. The RING has their scewed version of it yes, but its safe and wise to differentiate between them. Im not really sure about 'recognition' per se, but its only been relatively recently where the RING has totally fallen off, when they changed their rules

Put it this way

Floyd-Guerrero established the RING welterweight title
Floyd-Pacquiao established the universally recognised lineage

Regarding the RING rules, not fighting at the weight for 2 years is a grey area - id certainly say thats akin to retiring (or moving from the division). Other places are less inclined to strip champions like that, such as TBRB... they don't like it, they want titles to be ultimately decided in the ring, within reason. Its safe to say though, Ward's super middleweight lineage is certainly under question at the moment.

I bolded some of your comment because I found it pretty interesting. I've always hated the fact that lineages are judged on face value alone. Posters on here would claim history if Floyd beat Cotto for the MW title, but we all know thats a joke. I talked about Kovalev/Stevenson which is an eerily similar situation. Let me refer you to a message I posted to TBRB, and Springs Toledo's always elegant and intelligent response:

I wish TBRB wouldn’t religiously tag onto the notion of lineage… the whole concept is flawed in my opinion, and really isn’t dynamic enough to reflect the best fighter of the division. As it stands, contenders are ranked based on their resume, recent wins and performances, etc. This is in stark contrast to an established ‘champion’, who can keep his title as long as he doesn’t lose, retire or move division, allowing for a split between the ‘champion’ and the best fighter in the division. I think it’s a little unfair. I do recognise though, the entire concept of championship is flawed inherently – theres no way possible for a championship to reflect the best fighter (or fighters if opinions do differ) 100% of the time, especially if the traditions of boxing are upheld (i.e the championship being decided in the ring).

It did make me think though, why TBRB (Transnational Boxing RANKINGS Board) is also fixed on this idea. In essence, whilst the rankings of contenders is very respectable, the ‘champions’ offer a lot of debate, a very similar situation to the RING. I’td be great for TBRB to offer something completely different, in that ALL titles are ignored, and use only TBRB’s well respected method of rankings for the top 10 in a division. The TBRB isn’t a championship, and doesn’t have to follow the same flawed methods.

For example, using your Light Heavyweight rankings, TBRB could offer a list such as this:

1 Sergey Kovalev
2 Adonis Stevenson
3 Bernard Hopkins
4 Andrzej Fonfara
5 Jean Pascal
6 Juergen Braehmer
7 Artur Beterbiev
8 Yunieski Gonzalez
9 Eleider Alvarez
10 Isaac Chilemba

With Kovalev having the best run and wins within the division, it presents the fact that Stevenson’s lineage doesn’t represent nearly as much, it really has no value more than his current WBC title. The list offers a pretty clear indication of who is the premier fighter of the division, in accordance with TBRB’s respected methods of ranking. Championships are great for marketability and own personal legacy, but being recognised by the no.1 fighter in your division by TBRB would also be an honour, if not more so in the eyes of hardcore fans. This method also gives fighters the opportunity to escape the loophole to which some fighters belong, Uchiyama for example, who isn’t the lineal champion of his division, who is clearly the no.1 fighter there, yet with lesser recognition. He has already beaten the no.2.

But I only offer this as something to consider. I respect TBRB’s rankings withstanding, but it seems a massive shame that with all rankings – whether its ABC rankings, the RING or TBRB, they all fail too often in showing the best fighter, but instead their perspective on a championship.

Liam

Now that’s an interesting post, Liam. You clearly differentiate between the concept of “champion” and “the premiere/best fighter” in the division and that’s refreshing to see. Those concepts are very frequently confused by not only fans but commentators as well. However, for us to simply rank fighters with no acknowledgement of the divisional champions would neither suit our purposes nor would it be original. This was done by The Ring some years ago and I’ll be honest, it drove me and probably several other boxing historians crazy. It isn’t very difficult to discern who the true divisional champions are. We are very confident that we have identified the right ones and would stand by our formula. To become the true divisional champion, you must beat the true divisional champion. (All belts are incidental –mere decorations that don’t figure in.) If the divisional throne is open, then #1 must fight #2 to determine the rightful successor. The open thrones are there, but we insist that open thrones are better than appointing faux champions. Where’s the debate there?

The list you offer is interesting, but why not just look at the #1 light-heavyweight contender and see the premiere fighter in the division? We do –and it’s made pretty clear in the P4P List. Stevenson is the true champion every bit as much as Floyd Patterson was even while Liston was cutting down contender after contender in the early 60s and getting ignored for it. Let’s hope that Stevenson has the character to fulfill his responsibilities and face Kovalev as Patterson finally did Liston.

[aboutfkntime]

A catchweight within the middleweight division, yes

But a catchweight nonetheless.

Liam, why the fcuk did you feel the need to make that silly statement ?

WHY ?????????????????????????????????

A fight with a standard divisional limit is completely different to a catchweight that restricts what the competitors can weigh.

How is that not obvious ?

[techliam]

But a catchweight nonetheless.

Liam, why the fcuk did you feel the need to make that silly statement ?

WHY ?????????????????????????????????

A fight with a standard divisional limit is completely different to a catchweight that restricts what the competitors can weigh.

How is that not obvious ?

I agree catchweights are different, but they are in the same weight class still

We have divisions for a reason. If a diva like Canelo wants to make his own, then we shouldn't have to play his game. He's fighting at middleweight, a small middleweight perhaps, but middleweight. I think its actually awful that some places recognise his wins over Angulo, Lara and Kirkland as legit JMW bouts

On a side note, sanctioning bodies should implement rules stating all world championship bouts should be at the full divisional limit. Catchweight bouts should be strictly non-title affairs. Too much promoter interest there though, sadly

[aboutfkntime]

You are saying somebody else doesn't understand the concept of weight limits, after you wrote this ... twice?





So you think 155lbs is obviously JMW? LMFAO!

Then you wrote this:



You have been exposed in this thread, son.

I'd say it's aboutfkntime you shut up and stop making an idiot of yourself.

Both comments are 100% correct.

Canelo is obviously a JMW, so stop being so ******.

* Canelo has never fought at 160
* Canelo has never prepared for a middleweight fight
* Canelo has never fought a middleweight

He weighs 155...... 1lb over, and he does that because of entitlement.

He made 152 for Mayweather, so stop being so ******.

Just more weak, childish excuses, to protect your current girlfriend.

Shameless.

And any additional contracted stipulation reducing the maximum that a fighter can weigh, is obviously a catchweight.

This post is for you.....

For the casual fans who don't seem to know whats going on.....

The divisional limit for middleweight is 160, and it always has been.

Dishonest/fanboy posters who are lacking in knowledge are trying to confuse you, most likely to justify some lame catchweight on behalf of their current girlfriend.

It works like this.....

FACT: The divisional limit for middleweight is 160

meaning: you can weight up to 160 at the official weigh-in

FACT: When a contractual sanction is imposed reducing the maximum allowed weight for a middleweight bout below 160, then that fight becomes a catchweight contest by default

meaning: you can weigh up to the imposed sanction

How the fcuk could you asshats find that confusing.

Stop making lame childish excuses for your poosey girlfriend.

[aboutfkntime]

If he insists on holding on to the MW belt, he's a MW. If he's too small, should have dropped it on the spot. Instead he's #1 at MW in almost every ranking, and uses that belt for max leverage. Belts mean the world to pro boxers, ignoramus.

If you insist on holding onto your ****, I guess that makes you a wanker.

I agree that Cotto should drop the strap.

And I agree that Canelo should drop the 1lb that he feels entitled to steal.

That does not make you any less of an idiot for insisting that a guy who weighs 153 is a middleweight.

You need to smarten up.

This post from hitking should help you.....

The fighters can do or think whatever they want. In my own lil personal boxing universe, belts have ZERO to do with how I rate fighters. And they have ZERO to do with fights I wanna see and the reasons why I wanna see those fights.

Example, this fight with AB is a top 10 jr welterweight fighting a fringe jr welterweight. Just because they put "title fight" on the fight poster doesn't make me view it any differently.

Another example, GGG-Lemieux. Its IMO the best middleweight in the world and a supposed elite fighting a guy that's been KO'd and beaten by C level competition. Just because they put "unification fight" on the fight poster doesn't make me view the fight any differently.

http://www.boxingscene.com/forums/sh...=685572&page=5

[-Kev-]

I think if the Cotto vs Canelo fight is a barn burner with a controversial outcome, a rematch would probably make sense. But the winner will have to relinquish the WBC belt and let GGG finally accomplish his sought after feat of unifying the MW titles in the weak division vs Sebastian Heiland(?).

Future talks are foolish. Golovkin has to beat Lemieux first

Boxrec should put that fight as a W for GGG already. GGG will be the 2nd fighter to KO Lem, and the 3rd overall to beat him. In a very short span, too. 2011-2015, 3 losses, two against average fighters, one against a good fighter (GGG).

[aboutfkntime]

I agree catchweights are different, but they are in the same weight class still

We have divisions for a reason. If a diva like Canelo wants to make his own, then we shouldn't have to play his game. He's fighting at middleweight, a small middleweight perhaps, but middleweight. I think its actually awful that some places recognise his wins over Angulo, Lara and Kirkland as legit JMW bouts

On a side note, sanctioning bodies should implement rules stating all world championship bouts should be at the full divisional limit. Catchweight bouts should be strictly non-title affairs. Too much promoter interest there though, sadly

Nobody said they aren't.

A middleweight fight, takes place at the middleweight limit.

The middleweight limit will not change.

The middleweight limit is 160.

Anything less than that, is a catchweight fight, obviously.

In this case, yes, in the middleweight range.

Tell me, Petersons fight with Garcia at 141, was that a welterweight fight?

Come on bro.

Is Canelo a MW, because he exploits his position to come in 1lb over?

Reynoso made their position clear at welter when weighing 150.

We do it because we can, Canelo can still make 147, but it can be a struggle, so we will preserve his career and only fight at the divisional limit for meaningful fights..... otherwise, 150 it is.

And they are obviously doing the same thing at JMW.

Clear as a bell.

Just like the Peterson 141lb catchweight does not make him a welter.

All you are doing is confusing this obvious issue for the clueless fans who are still struggling with this.