Wladimir Klitschko and the skill conundrum - wider debate/discussion

[Foreign Soil]

i noticed how you didn't mention any defensive skills because wlad doens't have any. his defensive skill is clinching which is an illegal tactic. before he developed this illegal tactic with steward he was hitting the canvas over and over. anyone who has to cheat to win isn't a very skilled fighter in the traditional sense. skilled at cheating sure i will agree.

Wlad's defense used to be his offense and range. Once Steward taught him how to hold, his defense became his range plus holding, somewhat like Lewis, whom didn't have much of a defense either. I remember Vitali not agreeing with Steward's choice of teaching Wlad to hold, saying it wasn't necessary, or something. He's right... Wlad's relied on the holding and it's taken away his offense.

[No Tomorrow]

Wlad definitely has skills. It is his "die-hard" supporters that over estimate it and exaggerate it. Wladimir mentally is a very tough man and is extremely dedicated. However, the quality of his opponents haven't been the highest caliber and he is allowed to get away with excessive clinching to the point that it makes you wonder how much money these referees are getting paid under the table to change their performance based around Wladimir's game. I want to like Wladimir, but his fans almost ruin it.

These same fans probably do not have the same level in opinion for : Omar Andres Narvaez or Orlando Canizales

[Y0@NN]

I want to like Wladimir, but his fans almost ruin it.

I feel you, i want to dislike him but his detractors make me root for him.

[juggernaut666]

You don't need an arsenal...the one who executes the better set punches is the superior fighter..Wlad beating everyone with the jab in itself shows who the best fighter is,no one can beat him on that punch alone...what ppl also fail to realize is his faints and switching up what side he is hitting you with....the most perfect right hand along with the the killer left jab/hook combo will beat any obsolete multi puncher.......his detractors simply don't know how to study masterful stratedgy and skill that's about it,there to busy given praise to pillow puncher fury who dances around and plays tag ....

[PainfromUkraine]

As far as i see he rarely counters, has no inside game and doesnt punch in combination. His defence is almost entirely based on control of distance (which i give credit for) and excessive illegal holding.


The skills he does have have been drilled to perfection by now and coupled with his size hes a formidable opponent, but if we are talking pure skills then he is definitely well behind other heavyweights in history.

The lack of good opponents available has meant the skillset he has is more than enough

Fair points - however, to address some of those points: in terms of countering, he never really needs to or is in a position to, because he is more often than not the aggressor as the opponents are often too scared to go on the front foot, thus not leaving any opportunity for counter.

Which heavyweights really do punch in combinations of many punches though? Very few in history have been very proficient at it CONSISTENTLY and DESTRUCTIVELY- Tyson being the main standout. I do agree that Wlad would look a lot better if he employed more combos, but if one punch more often than not does the business - what can you do?

I agree past champions have had more varied skillsets and gameplans, and have employed that for the duration of their careers, but the compelling argument is whether someone like Wlad who masters three punches can potentially be more effective with that smaller arsenal than another great that for example can do everything very well or excellently, but not be as 'masterful' as Wlad might be with just the three main weapons he uses.

[Easy Work.]

Hes not limited at all. Just his style makes it seem that way. He likes to keep guys at range with long straight punches and sometimes throws a couple of hooks and it works. Hes one of the best outside fighters ever.

He doesnt really have to clinch, he probably could still dominate without doing it as much , he doesnt want to give his opponents any chance on the inside and thats why he does it. Wlad could be knocking guys out in 3 rounds but he fights way too cautiously, emmanuel steward even acknowledged this saying that wlad can do alot more than he shows in the ring. He just doesnt really have to becuase hes so dominant.

Comparing fury to wlad skill wise is embarassing btw

[Banderivets]

Wlad's defense used to be his offense and range. Once Steward taught him how to hold, his defense became his range plus holding, somewhat like Lewis, whom didn't have much of a defense either. I remember Vitali not agreeing with Steward's choice of teaching Wlad to hold, saying it wasn't necessary, or something. He's right... Wlad's relied on the holding and it's taken away his offense.

Wlads defensive is what his opponents ALLOW it to be...I used to hate on him for the holding, but the bottom line is that his opponents are just as willing to hug it out with him because usually they eat a shot just before the clinch happens.

All this talk about Wlad clinching is being all his fault is just annoying. THERE ARE WAYS to get out of a clinch if you really want to. Just look at Lomachenko, get an arm loose and throw a looping overhand shot....or is Wlad terminator, with a grip so strong that you can't even attempt to get out of the clinch?

Fight your way out of a clinch, WLAD WOULD GET POINTS deducted if his opponents made a REAL effort to brake the clinch (because at this point its holding) but they don't. They just embrace his hugs and wait for the refs to break them up. David Haye tried it a few times then he gave up.

So they dont have the strength and skill to fight him on the inside, they get peppered by shots all day at distance, so all they have left to do is hug it out till the bell rings.

Last few fights Wlad even made it a point to just put out his arms when the other guy was hugging him to show that "I'm not holding" but I guess that's still Wlad clinching right?

Typical Wlad opponent scenario "I weave myself in, and do nothing, Wlad steps forward.....oh well I guess we can hug it out......rinse and repeat" they do nothing once they get inside.

[Foreign Soil]

Excessive clinching is illegal, but points are only ever taken away when the fight is nearly over, which has no impact on the tactic.

I agree that hug victims could do more to prevent it, but that doesn't change the fact that Wlad gets away with hugging simply due to his size, not skill.

[soul_survivor]

I am going by the logic of certain posters here that if you don't consistently throw every punch in the book, you are unskilled and trash. Vitali by that logic was more skilled than Wlad because he often threw uppercuts, right hooks, could **** inside and even jabbed to the body a lot more than Wlad. That is one interesting thing actually - such a tall guy like Vitali had no real need to chop down at the body of smaller guys, but sometimes did anyway.

Anyway, a lot of Vitali's skill lay in the fact he was able to judge distance and rely on reflexes as a form of defense. I can't recall another heavyweight who fought with his hands low all the time and had as much success as Vitali.

erm, heard of a certain Muhammad Ali? He dominated the division for half of the 1960s and did it just like that. Plus he didn't have the huge physical advantages in height and reach that Vitali enjoyed, so it was more difficult for him to use that style but he did it and did it far better than Vitali ever could. I odn't recall Vitali standing in the pocket as often as Ali or someone like Tyson, Holyfield or Frazier.

Vitali did have decent reflexes though but then again, so does Wlad, it's just that Vitali can rely on his chin to take a punch, Wlad can't and he panics.

[Box-Office]

Wlad is a guy who is consistently criticised by many for having a very limited skillset, or being unskilled and relying on the most basic of punch combinations. This to a large degree is unwarranted criticism (as the basic 123 seems to be all that is needed in the heavyweight division these days), BUT the main discussion here is whether we can call someone unskilled if a fighter chooses consciously to use a specific set of punches - for discussions sake let's say this selection is a small variety such as what Wlad employs - jab, straight right, left hook.

After Fury said that, I thought of this: