Wladimir Klitschko and the skill conundrum - wider debate/discussion

[PainfromUkraine]

Wlad is a guy who is consistently criticised by many for having a very limited skillset, or being unskilled and relying on the most basic of punch combinations. This to a large degree is unwarranted criticism (as the basic 123 seems to be all that is needed in the heavyweight division these days), BUT the main discussion here is whether we can call someone unskilled if a fighter chooses consciously to use a specific set of punches - for discussions sake let's say this selection is a small variety such as what Wlad employs - jab, straight right, left hook.

Wlad in his early career was clearly more of a variety puncher and was utilizing the entire range of punches. In theory, if we were watching him at the time, we would be raving about this new massive heavyweight with skills and power. That has diminished over time into even ridicule of the current Wlad.

HOWEVER - as the current Wlad and his STYLE and GAMEPLAN rather than skillset, is a by-product of Manny Steward's tutelage and instruction, how does it make him unskilled? It is clear Klitschko has the full array of punches - and technically i'd say Wlad is actually quite away ahead of Vitali for example, but Vitali was ALLOWED to showcase a more varied and seemingly skillful style, because of his iron chin. Wlad doesn't have that unfortunately, so he has to avoid the types of punches or movements that put him in danger of getting his chin cracked. It makes sense for a fighter to hide his weaknesses in that way, while at the same time developing and honing a smaller set of 'tools' in a skillset, which can be a much more reliable arsenal to win a fight.

For comparison's sake - take Wlad and Fury - a lot of Fury's fans say he is more skilled by far because he throws a lot of different punches. I personally disagree. I'd much rather have a perfect jab, left hook and right hand, rather than a wider array of punches but not up to the standard of an opponents smaller but much more developed arsenal.

For this discussion I just used Wlad as he is a relevant guy to talk about right now, and a lot of criticism has been thrown at him at this particular time by a lot of Fury fans, and a lot of other fans over the years.

But the wider debate also exists - is it fair to call a fighter unskilled who has to fight in a 'less-skilled' way (or in some people's eyes) in order to be successful, for example to cover up weaknesses or faults in the rest of their 'make-up' as a fighter?

Discuss...

[soul_survivor]

I'm not sure who in their right mind calls Wlad or Vitali "unskilled" but the reality of the situation is this, both brothers have a very limited skill set. I'm not sure where or when and against whom Vitali showed a more varied skill set than Wlad, as you alluded to in your post. Vitali just happened to have a more unorthodox, less text book stance because he could drop his hands and not worry about his chin crumbling under the pressure.

Vitali in my opinion often looked uncoordinated and uncomfortable, he was slower than Wlad and his punches weren't as text book but he did have more power and wasn't afraid of a bit of a fight. Wlad has better footwork and throws more "correct" punches but is limited by his chin and his inability to throw more than a 3 punch combination, not simply because he might get hit back but also because he isn't that effective at throwing other punches. He has added a decent left hook in the last couple years and is trying to add the uppercut but he will never be a fluid puncher.

None of this takes away from both guys and their achievements, two of the very best heavyweights ever, top 10 or 20 in most people's estimations. Their huge advantages in size and reach and maximising those advantages have helped both men build a storied career.

[Weltschmerz]

Good thread. The answer is nobody should call Vladimir unskilled. Also, his chin is underrated. Vlad was never knocked out cold, he had two obscure fights against opponents who should never have defeated him, and he probably did the foolish mistake of underestimating an opponent with Sanders. As I said in another thread, Vlad has perfected his current style (courtesy of Steward) - very few fighters in history would be a threat to the prime Vlad we have witnessed during an impressive (+)decade up until now. Many thought Haye could dethrone him with his speed, aggressiveness and power, but surprisingly, Vlad was as fast as Haye and showed superior footwork, impressive lightness/swiftness, accuracy etc. for a 245 lbs athlete.

[Banderivets]

I'm not sure who in their right mind calls Wlad or Vitali "unskilled" but the reality of the situation is this, both brothers have a very limited skill set

Sorry but what?

Is "skilled" the new "aflectic"?

What is the definition of skilled? Who in their right mind would ever say that Wlad has a "limited skill set" unless you mean something else.

Skill is defined as "competent excellence in performance; expertness; dexterity", now which one of those is Wlad missing? His jab is excellence, his right hand is excellence, he knocks out guys with a great left hook. His strategy is usually excellent.

Or do you mean that he utilizes a limited number of punches? That does not make him any less skilled as he wins fights and wins convincingly.

Why would Wlad throw uppercuts against shorter opposition? Why would Wlad throw uppercuts if he doesn't fight inside? Because essentially this is the only punch that he is missing, he has everything else.

We all know he can throw just about anything offensively, watch his earlier fights. He was no Lomachenko but he was throwing combos in his early days that make the likes of Wilder look like toughman bar brawlers.

[PainfromUkraine]

I'm not sure who in their right mind calls Wlad or Vitali "unskilled" but the reality of the situation is this, both brothers have a very limited skill set. I'm not sure where or when and against whom Vitali showed a more varied skill set than Wlad, as you alluded to in your post. Vitali just happened to have a more unorthodox, less text book stance because he could drop his hands and not worry about his chin crumbling under the pressure.

Vitali in my opinion often looked uncoordinated and uncomfortable, he was slower than Wlad and his punches weren't as text book but he did have more power and wasn't afraid of a bit of a fight. Wlad has better footwork and throws more "correct" punches but is limited by his chin and his inability to throw more than a 3 punch combination, not simply because he might get hit back but also because he isn't that effective at throwing other punches. He has added a decent left hook in the last couple years and is trying to add the uppercut but he will never be a fluid puncher.

None of this takes away from both guys and their achievements, two of the very best heavyweights ever, top 10 or 20 in most people's estimations. Their huge advantages in size and reach and maximising those advantages have helped both men build a storied career.

I am going by the logic of certain posters here that if you don't consistently throw every punch in the book, you are unskilled and trash. Vitali by that logic was more skilled than Wlad because he often threw uppercuts, right hooks, could **** inside and even jabbed to the body a lot more than Wlad. That is one interesting thing actually - such a tall guy like Vitali had no real need to chop down at the body of smaller guys, but sometimes did anyway.

Anyway, a lot of Vitali's skill lay in the fact he was able to judge distance and rely on reflexes as a form of defense. I can't recall another heavyweight who fought with his hands low all the time and had as much success as Vitali.

[Tom Cruise]

He has a limited skillset which, mixed with his physical attributes, ring generalmanship and sub par opponents, has led to him being the dominant heavyweight on the planet.

[PainfromUkraine]

He has a limited skillset which, mixed with his physical attributes, ring generalmanship and sub par opponents, has led to him being the dominant heavyweight on the planet.

How can we truly say as a fact Wlad has a very limited skill set when he simply now has a style that is not requiring him to fully use all his skills (which we witnessed he DOES possess if he chooses to fully use it)?

Are we in general too expectant of heavyweights to be as skilled as fighters in lower divisions?

What could Wlad change or add to his gameplan now to make him look more skillful?

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with you BTW, just continuing the discussion.

[Tom Cruise]

How can we truly say as a fact Wlad has a very limited skill set when he simply now has a style that is not requiring him to fully use all his skills (which we witnessed he DOES possess if he chooses to fully use it)?

Are we in general too expectant of heavyweights to be as skilled as fighters in lower divisions?

What could Wlad change or add to his gameplan now to make him look more skillful?

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with you BTW, just continuing the discussion.

As far as i see he rarely counters, has no inside game and doesnt punch in combination. His defence is almost entirely based on control of distance (which i give credit for) and excessive illegal holding.


The skills he does have have been drilled to perfection by now and coupled with his size hes a formidable opponent, but if we are talking pure skills then he is definitely well behind other heavyweights in history.

The lack of good opponents available has meant the skillset he has is more than enough

[daggum]

i noticed how you didn't mention any defensive skills because wlad doens't have any. his defensive skill is clinching which is an illegal tactic. before he developed this illegal tactic with steward he was hitting the canvas over and over. anyone who has to cheat to win isn't a very skilled fighter in the traditional sense. skilled at cheating sure i will agree.

[Foreign Soil]

I'm not sure who in their right mind calls Wlad or Vitali "unskilled" but the reality of the situation is this, both brothers have a very limited skill set. I'm not sure where or when and against whom Vitali showed a more varied skill set than Wlad, as you alluded to in your post. Vitali just happened to have a more unorthodox, less text book stance because he could drop his hands and not worry about his chin crumbling under the pressure.

Vitali in my opinion often looked uncoordinated and uncomfortable, he was slower than Wlad and his punches weren't as text book but he did have more power and wasn't afraid of a bit of a fight. Wlad has better footwork and throws more "correct" punches but is limited by his chin and his inability to throw more than a 3 punch combination, not simply because he might get hit back but also because he isn't that effective at throwing other punches. He has added a decent left hook in the last couple years and is trying to add the uppercut but he will never be a fluid puncher.

None of this takes away from both guys and their achievements, two of the very best heavyweights ever, top 10 or 20 in most people's estimations. Their huge advantages in size and reach and maximising those advantages have helped both men build a storied career.

Vitali was clearly more skilled than Wlad, including his unorthodox approach or not. Vitali could fight going forwards or backwards and his KO's came from being able to land at will, since he wasn't a huge puncher. Wlad simply was more coordinated and athletic, but he doesn't have near the boxing brain of Vitali to fight on the fly.