Comments Thread For: Froch on 'Bitter' Calzaghe: My Stats Smash His To Bits!

[Korver]

CORRECTION: both fought against 9 World Champions (WC). Calzaghe beat them all with no losses. Froch lost against 2 of them. So Froch is INCORRECT in saying he beat more WCs.

[robertzimmerman]

we can all do that to opponents though....

Pa scale - never been SMW, lost Hopkins some 4 years after Calzaghe.


Taylor - blown up MW, never done anything at SMW, lost something like 4 out of his last 7 fights in including that defeat to Froch before being sold by AA. Totally outboxed Froch till the last few rounds.

Credit to Froch for that, but he shouldn't have been outboxed against that version of Taylor.

Dire ell - green, many think beat Froch, since lost to Degale

AA - **** average including lose to Stiglitz and arguably a loss to Paul Smith (yet is another opponent Froch gets credit for due to his high profile because of the S6.

Johnson - came in late was a LHW, had to cut weight was 44 or something with something like 14 losses including to SHeika who Calzaghe beat, apparently this is another one of those really tough opponents that Froch faced compared to JC.

ButE - paper champion destroy by Froch. How you can question whether Joe would face him when he faced a far tougher man in Kessler, who withstood 24 rounds with Froch not 5.

Kessler - you only have to watch the Calzaghe fight and then the first Froch fight to see the deterioration. He's not up on his toes has become flat footed, his speed and reactions are clearly not what they were.

Groves - took Froch to school first 6 rounds of this fight, embarrassingly. The commentator even said... He's making a mug out of Carl Froch. He did this with no world level experience, youre making something out of Joe being in a close fight with an ATG, Joe never been beaten down & outclassed in any of his fights the way Froch has been.


I never said Joe's opponents were all that, what I said was their opponets were of a similar level With the exception of Joe's two better victories over anything Carls got.

These are the facts, Joe tried to make a fight with Hopkins years before, its common knowledge Jay Larkin the then showtime exec said terms were agreed then Hopkins doubled his demands.

I'm not saying Hopkins ducked him, I don't think he did but it wanSt all joe's fault the fights like this never happened earlier. It's also a shame that Ottke hid away in Germany protecting his belt for all those years.

Look, I respect Froch but It I st think he gets too much props for his record coz the guys were high profile due to the S 6. They were top level opponents but same level as the guys that people overlook completely on Calzaghe's

He got an opportunity to fight these guys back to back due to the S 6, but when you assess his resume against Joe's fully, in doesn't match up for all the reasons I've stated before.

Ward fought the same tournament but doesn't get half the props, Hopkins record for fighting guys is benter than anybodies for taking on top level oppo

Good post.

I think we're pretty much in agreement here.

But again, I think Carl has left a more longer lasting impression on people and is more popular than Joe was, due to having more memorable fights and having been in the spotlight more. That's just the way I see it. Basically, it's all to do with their circumstances.

Boxing is more publicised now with the Internet forums and the various TV networks etc. The Super Six was popular, and Carl is a crowd favourite due to his fighting style. Casual fans love tear ups.

Joe on the other hand fought in a division that didn't get much publicity, and he fought guys who weren't big names, even though they were good fighters. Also, despite having an ego as big as Carl's, Joe was generally quiet in the media, and in his interviews. He didn't have the fan base that Ricky and Carl had.

With regards to you calling Bute a paper champion, nobody knew that until Carl beat him. You've got to give Carl as much credit as you give Joe for beating Lacy. But yes, I do have to question whether or not Joe would have fought a fellow southpaw who was as big as him. Did he ever fight a world class southpaw? According to Frank Warren, Joe tried to pull out of the Lacy fight at the last moment claiming a hand injury, and Frank and Joe's Dad Enzo had to talk him out of doing so. And that claim has always fascinated me. Because Joe has never disputed it, and I've heard Enzo say on numerous occasions that he didn't care if Joe got injured at the last moment, because if he wasn't fit enough, he wouldn't fight. So Frank clearly implied that he'd lost his nerve. Frank also says that he was the greatest fighter he ever worked with, but he didn't believe in himself as much as he should have done. So if I take those comments on board and look at who Joe fought and how he managed his career, then I have to doubt whether he'd have fought Bute and Ward etc.

He said he wanted the biggest and best fights out there, yet instantly dismissed fighters like Tarver, Pavlik and Dawson when they were mentioned by the media. So I think my doubts are justified.

I agree with you regarding Ottke. He was protected and I don't think he'd ever have fought Joe. I also think that had they fought, Joe would easily have beaten him. But when he couldn't get the Ottke fight in 2003, he should have moved up to LHW. But the fact that he remained at SMW, even when Lacy and Kessler weren't around, speaks volumes to me.

He also loses a lot of respect for fighting Roy in 2008. He had no interesting in fighting Roy when Roy was anywhere near his peak, yet he was happy to do so when Roy was washed up and almost 40.

[SAJ10]

I don't think either of them are that popular to be honest, neither seem to have great personalities.

There's a few things we'llevels have to agree to disagree on, fan base Joe's on really grew post Lacy, but 50,000 mainly Calzaghe fans turned out to see against Kessler.

Groves, his antics and 1st fight controversy made the 80,000.

Everyone seemed to turn on Froch after the fight.

I do agree that when Froch came along the S 6 brought more publicity, even if took Froch until the Ward fight and then ButE fight to get the publicity and backing he should have had.

I give Froch the same credit for ButE as I do Joe for Lacy.

With Hopkins and Kessler on his record, S paw or not I just never going to agree that Joe wouldn't have faced ButE, & honestly don't think many would.

Regarding the injury pull out, it's well documented Joe's hand were Brittle and he was always injuring them.

He broke his hand in the Ashira fight before the Lacy fight and had to fight most of the fight one handed, if you watch the fight you'll see.

It's in joe's book what happened & yes I have read both joe's & Carls lol Re the Lacy fight, obviously his hand was broken before in the previous fight, 2 a few weeks before the fight hurt it again he had to have an injection, he couldn't move it or spar, he wanted to postpone but his Dad told him, if you postpone you may not get another opportunity, if you have to fight one handed then do it coz you can beat him One handed.

His hand cleared up but was obviously concerned going into the biggest fight of his career with lack of preparation & sparring but took the risk.

I've read something similar from Warren, I'd bare in mind that Joe had left him and sour g****s were the order of the day, if you want to believe Warren, Froch turned down 2 offers to fight Calzaghe was his claim in one of yesterday's newspapers.


Joe said before the Lacy fight, in an interview with Maguigan it's on youtube, he wants to win the Lacy fight, then 3 more big fights and he's out.

Which was exactly what he had.

He's later stated he had to retire as he did not want to risk his hands going in a fight, as by this stage they were in bits So he retired.

Regarding this its interesting because Froch is on record himself saying he's always lacked self belief, Groves mentally got to him and he's widely regarded as being one of the most nervous fighters before a match.

I respect your views, agree with some, disagree with others but again I don't see how Tarves etc can be thrown at Calzaghe for retiring when Froch has done exactly the same at the end of his career with Degale, Hopkins, Ward , GGG etc.


Froch was happy to fight Chave but not risk anybody else at this stage, he retired that's fine but people can't say he fought all comers when at the end of his career there was only one fight he was prepared to take.
It's another double standard that seems to happen in the Calzaghe Froch debates.

Respect to both guys, I just think Froch gets given a lot of benefits of the doubt and there's some double standards in the thinking when it comes to both fighters.

[TyrantT316]

I look at both of them in high regard. However I think Calzaghe's record is only enhanced by his personality and undefeated record. Otherwise I like Froch's competition over Calzaghe.

[alexKO]

Good post.

Joe was the better fighter, but Carl gets more respect. Carl pushed himself to the limits like Hatton did, but came up short. Whereas, Joe never put himself in that position.

Also, could you really call Joe 'The Man' at LHW when he retired?

He got a razor thin win over Hopkins in a truly horrible fight, where neither guy looked great.

Who else was 'the man' at LHW? Chad Dawson?

[alexKO]

When you actually stop & ana lyse both records Joe has more World Champions and 2 better wins. Carl get recognition as his were back to back coz of the super 6.

Joe also Ring champ at 2 weights.

Joe

Eubank, Reid, SHeika (not Workd Champ beat GLen Johnson though), Woodhall, Brewer, Mitchell, Lacy, Bika, peak undefeated Kessler, Hopkins, Jones

Carl

Pascal (lost to Hopkins), Taylor, Darrell (not WWorld Champ), AA, Johnson, ButE, Kessler (well past his best), Groves (not World Champ yet).

As I said the level of opposition is the same Joe currently has 10 world champs and 2 better wins than Froch, and Joe was the man at 2 weights.

Froch currently has 6 and might get 8 with Groves & Dire ell.

In what planet this gives Froch a better resume I don't know, let alone the fact he was beaten by a worse version of Kessler & owned by Ward.

Froch opportunity had a higher profile due to Super 6 but were guys like AA, Taylor and Johnson, Groves better than the guys on Joe' s CV, simply no.

Carl never ducked anybody - only Degale, GGG, Hopkins at LHW, catch weight and SMW, Ward rematch... come on. the only guy he was prepared to fight at the end was Chave JR. He even took Groves before that fight because he thought he was the easy option.

I was just about to say, Calzaghe actually has beaten more current/former/future world champions.

Calzaghe would have outclassed Froch and to those that chat about 'resume', the numbers suggest otherwise.

[Willie_pep1]

****** froch has a weird obsession with jo

[BodiesInFlight]

****** froch has a weird obsession with jo

What's weird? They are/were rivals

[hitking]

Calzage's win over Hopkins ****s on any and everything Froch ever did in a boxing ring. Calzage reigned over the super middleweight division for a decade. Froch has never been considered best in the division. Calzage wiped the floor with an undefeated, primed Mikkel Kessler. Froch lost to Kessler several years later and struggled with a washed up version years later in the rematch.

[royjonesjrKTFO]

Froch struggled against Taylor, Dirrell, Kessler( whom is his rivalry/competition ) and was schooled 12 rounds to 0 against Ward. Froch was NEVER the best in his own weight class whereas Joe Calzaghe is Lineal Champion @ 168. Joe Calzaghe would have beaten ANY VERSION of Bernard Hopkins, due to Calzaghe being more talented.

Joe Calzaghe = All-Time Great. All-Around better fighter.
Carl Froch = B-level fighter in a weak ERA, 2nd Best.
Limited in talent, boxing skills were average.