Emanuel Steward: Ali is the greatest HW of all time, Wladimir is 8th

[BigAlexSand]

I have a hard time rating Johnson (see an earlier post in this thread). Trainers and boxing men in the 1930s had Jack Johnson as being better (some felt far better) than Joe Louis until right around the Schmelling II fight. IF this evaluation is correct (very hard to tell from the ****y film) then Johnson deserves to be right up there.

Remember JJ's prime was from 30 years earlier that's like comparing a fighter from the 1980s to today. A lot of very good trainers and fighters saw both men in their prime.

Sorry but Joe Johnsons prime was in the early 1910's, losing his title to Willard in 1915 (I believe.) Joe was a monster but to be honest, Joe is not a top 10 heavyweight, top 20 yes but not top 10.

[bklynboy]

You rate Liston and Johnson above Frazier? I think Liston is quite overrated to be honest. I can agree with at the moment - Foreman, Holmes, Lewis, Frazier, Ali, Louis being above Wlad (not in that order). That would make him 7th. Arguably you could have someone else above him, which would place him right about 8th, just as Manny Steward said. However, usually your career is viewed more kindly after you are gone...so that's why I could see Wlad getting closer to the top 5 (not necessarily breaking into it), if he has more longevity and some more top 10 wins.

Forgot to include Liston in the post above.

Liston basically cleared out the division before fighting Floyd Patterson. It's pretty clear that Cus D'Amato postponed fighting Liston as long as possible. And, as it turned out he was right. Liston annihilated Patterson both times they fought.

Yeah Liston only successfully defended his title once - but he beat Foley, Cleveland Williams, Eddie Machen and others.

Cleveland Williams would have been a great match-up with WK. I think he was miles ahead of anyone that WK has fought.

[LacedUp]

Sorry but Joe Johnsons prime was in the early 1910's, losing his title to Willard in 1915 (I believe.) Joe was a monster but to be honest, Joe is not a top 10 heavyweight, top 20 yes but not top 10.

Who's this Joe Johnson that you speak off?

[MDPopescu]

Emanuel Steward is one of the few boxing technicians gods...
I always trust his words...
Manny was great and truthful...

[MDPopescu]

Who's this Joe Johnson that you speak off?

You're jesting, right?

[bklynboy]

Sorry but Joe Johnsons prime was in the early 1910's, losing his title to Willard in 1915 (I believe.) Joe was a monster but to be honest, Joe is not a top 10 heavyweight, top 20 yes but not top 10.

We're quibbling here but his prime probably started in 1905 or so. That's about when he should have fought for the title but was denied the chance because of the color of his skin. By 1910 when he fought for Jeffries Johnson was in his early 30s.

I don't know how good Jack Johnson was. The film s**ks. But, as said earlier, there were a lot of very good boxers and trainers who placed him right up with Joe Louis. If Joe Louis is a TOP 2 heavyweight of all-time then why would Jack Johnson be lower than TOP 5 or TOP 10?

[PainfromUkraine]

Forgot to include Liston in the post above.

Liston basically cleared out the division before fighting Floyd Patterson. It's pretty clear that Cus D'Amato postponed fighting Liston as long as possible. And, as it turned out he was right. Liston annihilated Patterson both times they fought.

Yeah Liston only successfully defended his title once - but he beat Foley, Cleveland Williams, Eddie Machen and others.

Cleveland Williams would have been a great match-up with WK. I think he was miles ahead of anyone that WK has fought.

1. Ali
2. Louis
3. Foreman
4. Holmes
5. Lewis
6. Frazier
7. Holyfield
8. Wlad
9. Marciano
10. Liston/Johnson

Something like that...

[LacedUp]

You rate Liston and Johnson above Frazier? I think Liston is quite overrated to be honest. I can agree with at the moment - Foreman, Holmes, Lewis, Frazier, Ali, Louis being above Wlad (not in that order). That would make him 7th. Arguably you could have someone else above him, which would place him right about 8th, just as Manny Steward said. However, usually your career is viewed more kindly after you are gone...so that's why I could see Wlad getting closer to the top 5 (not necessarily breaking into it), if he has more longevity and some more top 10 wins.

In terms of resume's these guys are clearly greater than Wlad. In no particular order:

Foreman
Frazier
Ali
Holmes
Lewis
Holyfield
Louis
Johnson

... And probably Bowe and Marciano as well. Then we can talk about guys like Tyson, Dempsey, Liston, Fitzsimmons (not all heavyweights), Joe Walcott, Ezzard Charles etc who didn't all fight at heavyweight exclusively, but more or less all have standout wins over quality opposition at heavyweight, which is the one thing Wlad is lacking.

He doesn't really have an outstanding win or performance for that matter - let alone heaps of them like the guys in the top 5 have.

I would put him between 10-15 at this moment in time, and unfortunately, it doesn't look like there's anyone out there that can help him improve on that.

H2H is a different matter entirely though.

[MDPopescu]

Jack Johnson...

[LacedUp]

You're jesting, right?

Yes, but the poster should at least get his name right.