Emanuel Steward: Ali is the greatest HW of all time, Wladimir is 8th

[PainfromUkraine]

Frazier was THE MAN for 5-6 years (since Ali wasn't able to fight). That's longer than Wlad has been "the man"! - and when they were both prime Frazier won. I don't think it's fair to dismiss Frazier's two losses to Ali as just losses. He was in the fights, and not the second one admittedly, they were great great fights. The third fight was fight of the century and he would have won had his corner let him stand up.

Frazier was getting on for the first Foreman fight and was done for the second fight. Not excuses, just facts.

He does have 4 losses, but they were to two top 5 ATGs. Wlad has 3 (KO) losses to people that were journeymen. It's not really comparable.

But Frazier was the man longer than Wlad has been the man. Some would say Wlad has only been the man since Vitali retired as he was always the #1 or the champ. Wlad shouldn't get fantasy points just because his brother is a fighter too.

Besides, Frazier beat more top 10 opponents, more ATGs and more HOFamers than Wlad has. He clearly has a better resume, but most don't consider him a top 5.

From memory I'm sure I remember seeing records that Frazier wasn't champ more than 4 years...(?) Anyhow, I'm not comparing their resumes, as luckily Frazier fought in a very good era - however - do you think it's unfair that Frazier isn't ranked top 5? Would he be viewed higher if he stayed away from Foreman or Ali again - or does he look better for facing them, even in defeat?

[bklynboy]

this vid is on point. agree with every thing he said. u have to judge a boxer by who he beat and ali beat them all, forman boxing ability is underrated, larry holmes is underrrated full stop, jack johson is overrated and marciano did overachieve but wouldnt last in the ring against the best

Blackburn (Joe Louis' trainer) and others in the 1930s thought that Jack Johnson was better than Joe Louis. It wasn't until the Schmelling II fight that they started putting Joe Louis above Johnson. Now, wouldn't that make JJ a definite TOP 10 fighter (if not a TOP 5)?

[yoz]

He says it here folks, Lenox before Klitchschos

Yes, finally some footage to support the statement! Lennox > Wlad.

[bklynboy]

Interesting. I think his longevity, coupled with a few more good wins, will propel him closer to the top 5.

I think WK will get props for longevity but I don't see how he can get into the TOP 10, let alone the TOP 5.

In chronological order

Jack Johnson
Joe Louis
Sonny Liston
Muhammad Ali
George Foreman
Larry Holmes
Lennox Lewis

are definitely above WK

Joe Frazier
Mike Tyson (very short prime)
Evander Holyfield

are arguably above him in my opinion as well

[PainfromUkraine]

I think WK will get props for longevity but I don't see how he can get into the TOP 10, let alone the TOP 5.

In chronological order

Jack Johnson
Joe Louis
Sonny Liston
Muhammad Ali
George Foreman
Larry Holmes
Lennox Lewis

are definitely above WK

Joe Frazier
Mike Tyson (very short prime)
Evander Holyfield

are above him in my opinion as well

You rate Liston and Johnson above Frazier? I think Liston is quite overrated to be honest. I can agree with at the moment - Foreman, Holmes, Lewis, Frazier, Ali, Louis being above Wlad (not in that order). That would make him 7th. Arguably you could have someone else above him, which would place him right about 8th, just as Manny Steward said. However, usually your career is viewed more kindly after you are gone...so that's why I could see Wlad getting closer to the top 5 (not necessarily breaking into it), if he has more longevity and some more top 10 wins.

[bklynboy]

You rate Liston and Johnson above Frazier? I think Liston is quite overrated to be honest. I can agree with at the moment - Foreman, Holmes, Lewis, Frazier, Ali, Louis being above Wlad (not in that order). That would make him 7th. Arguably you could have someone else above him, which would place him right about 8th, just as Manny Steward said. However, usually your career is viewed more kindly after you are gone...so that's why I could see Wlad getting closer to the top 5 (not necessarily breaking into it), if he has more longevity and some more top 10 wins.

I have a hard time rating Johnson (see an earlier post in this thread). Trainers and boxing men in the 1930s had Jack Johnson as being better (some felt far better) than Joe Louis until right around the Schmelling II fight. IF this evaluation is correct (very hard to tell from the ****y film) then Johnson deserves to be right up there.

Remember JJ's prime was from 30 years earlier that's like comparing a fighter from the 1980s to today. A lot of very good trainers and fighters saw both men in their prime.

[LacedUp]

From memory I'm sure I remember seeing records that Frazier wasn't champ more than 4 years...(?) Anyhow, I'm not comparing their resumes, as luckily Frazier fought in a very good era - however - do you think it's unfair that Frazier isn't ranked top 5? Would he be viewed higher if he stayed away from Foreman or Ali again - or does he look better for facing them, even in defeat?

He was champ from '68-'73 when he lost to Foreman the first time. But we can discuss if he was actually 'the man' as Ali was banned. But because he was banned, I think it's fair to say Frazier was the legit champ as he fought every contender he could have fought - and toppled that with beating Ali.

I'm not sure if it's unfair, because there are so many great fighters in the heavyweight division. Frazier is clearly a top 10 for me though, which he isn't always for some reason. His resume is quite awesome.

Of course he gets extra credit for facing them imo. He fought the best time after time, and even when most thought he was shot to bits, he gave Ali the fight of his life. That rivalry is the best in boxing history in my opinion. At the time, many thought Frazier was better than Ali!

Foreman just had such brute power that he could wipe the floor with anyone. Credit to Frazier for giving such a guy a shot and again for facing him the second time.

Yes, finally some footage to support the statement! Lennox > Wlad.

I think that's pretty common knowledge. Steward has said before that Lennox was his best heavyweight.

But even for that, everybody knows Lewis faced much better opposition and avenged both his defeats and his only draw (lol draw).

Not sure if he's top 5 though. But he's top 5 in a modern sense.

[BigAlexSand]

This interview was recorded before Wlad vs Haye. It has never been published before.

No way there was any bias in that comment. I enjoy Steward but obviously he will say Wlad is in the top 10

[LacedUp]

I think WK will get props for longevity but I don't see how he can get into the TOP 10, let alone the TOP 5.

In chronological order

Jack Johnson
Joe Louis
Sonny Liston
Muhammad Ali
George Foreman
Larry Holmes
Lennox Lewis

are definitely above WK

Joe Frazier
Mike Tyson (very short prime)
Evander Holyfield

are arguably above him in my opinion as well

Is that list supposed to go in order?

[LacedUp]

No way there was any bias in that comment. I enjoy Steward but obviously he will say Wlad is in the top 10

I think he's completely honest about it. He's just realistic in terms of resume vs H2H - which is a good way to rank I suppose, but also gives a lot of fantasy points to the fighters more reliant on H2H values i.e. Wlad or Vitali.