Post Benitez/Leonard/Hearns/Duran Welterweight Top 20

[RAV3N]

Did you actually see the gauze in the evidence bag?

ts is correct, that piece of gauze has suddenly been exaggerated into a brick.

Saying someone exaggerates isnt calling someone one a liar.

[jas]

Did you actually see the gauze in the evidence bag?

ts is correct, that piece of gauze has suddenly been exaggerated into a brick.

Saying someone exaggerates isnt calling someone one a liar.

So give an unexaggerated version of "a block fell out"

[RAV3N]

I will ask the same question again.

Did you actually see the gauze in the evidence bag?

There was a photo of it a while back and it was the piece of gauze that they put over the knuckles.

It looked a little sus but it sure wasnt a block lol.

[MisterHardtop]

So now you are calling a devout religious man a liar

Besides, he said it in the build up to Mosley mayweather fight. Why would he lie

I have no bearing on his religion and I'm not sure about you but I have met Naazim on multiple occasions, he has been a gentlemen each time but money, the spotlight and ones need to tell the story can make liars of all of us. I've probably told some of my grand kids some wild stories, based on truth but changed over time.

Remember this is the same Naazim Richardson who claimed that Felix Trinidad had something extra in his wraps, but it turned out that Trinidad's father who I believe was doing the wrapping at the time, simply put on too much tape. It was a nothing that turned into a something.

As I've already mentioned, Margarito did something wrong for the Mosley fight, there is no denying it but I iwll not fall into the hearsay. I'm going with the official reports that claim "trace substances were found". Nothing more, nothing less.

[JDD1]

There is a great thread on this forum focusing on the best welterweights since the era of the Fab 4, or the Triumphant 3, considering that the Marvelous One never fought at welterweight. Anyway, this got me thinking of the 20 best names in the division since, how would I rate them? Where do they stand? How many of them can be considered great (strictly looking at their welterweight standings)? What criteria would I use?

So the first thing I did was divide their opponents faced into four categories: A, B, C and D. An "A" opponent is a terrific win, taking into account the opponent's position at the time of the fight, who was the favourite and the manner of victory.

I then looked at the overall skill level of the fighter, how good he was the weight, taking into account the physical basics: skill, power, punch resistance and stamina. Outside of the physical attributes and possibly more important is the skill level, ring IQ, ability to adapt to different styles and style. Losses were also taken into account, the manner of those losses and any controversial wins.

Using the above criteria, I have come up with the following top 10 (remainder of the top 20 will follow):

1. Oscar De La Hoya
Wins
A: Whitaker and Quartey
B: Carr
C: Chavez Sr, Rivera, Gatti and Camacho
D: Kamau, Charpentier and Coley

Losses
A very controversial first loss to Felix Trinidad, which really should be a win, with Oscar winning between 7-9 rounds on most cards outside of the judges involved. Second loss to Shane Mosley (SD), a very good fighter in his own right and the leading lightweight at the time. Shrouded in PED controversy. Neither loss takes away too much from Oscar's terrific run at 147lb.

2. Felix Trinidad
Wins
A: -
B: DLH, Carr and Camacho
C: Whitaker, Garcia and Pineda
D: The remainder of his IBF defences

Losses
Trinidad was unbeaten in his time as welterweight titlist, largely due to his power, size, exceptional ability to cut fighters off and favourable judges. Regarded as one of the most dangerous punchers ever at welterweight.

3. Shane Mosley
Wins
A: DLH and Margarito
B: -
C: Collazo and Rivera
D: Diaz, Taylor, Cano, Wise and co.

Losses
Losses have come against the best guys in the division, including the likes of Forrest and Cotto, his two most recent defeats have come as an almost shot fighter against Mayweather and Pacquiao. The Cotto fight was exceptionally close.

4. Manny Pacquiao
Wins
A: Cotto
B: DLH and Clottey
C: Rios and Marquez
D: Mosley

Losses
The only true loss for Pacquiao at welterweight has come at the hands of long time rival Marquez, who stopped the Filipino in 6, exhilarating rounds. One of the best welterweight contests in recent years. The other loss should actually be in the "A" win column, with Bradley squeaking by in one of the most disgraceful judging decisions in recent memory.

5. Floyd Mayweather
Wins
A: -
B: Hatton
C: Judah, Marquez, Guerrero and Baldomir
D: Mosley, Mitchell and Ortiz

Losses
There are none, which speaks volumes and tells us one of 2 things, either Mayweather is exceptionally skilled or he hasn't fought all the best names available. In fact, both conclusions are legitimate. Mayweather is indeed exceptional skilled but has has missed out on welterweight bouts with Margarito, Williams, Cotto and Pacquiao.

6. Lloyd Honeyghan
Wins
A: Curry
B: Blocker and Bumphus
C: Hatcher, Kil-Chung, Mittee and Vaca
D: String of fights for Commonwealth, British and European titles

Losses
Losses to Marlon Starling and Jorce Vaca stand out but Honeyghan was suffering by this stage and no longer at his best for various reasons. To his credit, he only lost to the best in his division at the time.

7. Donald Curry
Wins
A: -
B: McCrory and Starling 2x
C: Diaz, Rocca and Stafford
D: Number of opponents

Losses
Of course, there is the surprising loss to Lloyd Honeyghan and the subsequent decline. It is important to note that this was his only loss at the weight.

8. Vernon Forrest
Wins
A: Mosley 2x
B: -
C: Frank and Phillips
D: Stone, Griffin amongst others

Losses
A brutal stoppage at the hands of Ricardo Mayorga derailed what could have been a great career at welterweight, sending Forrest 7lb north.

9. Antonio Margarito
Wins
A: Cotto
B: Cintron and Clottey
C: Diaz, Santos and Kyvelos
D: Notable wins in this category are Martinez, Kamau and Randall

Losses
The biggest of defeats came against Shane Mosley, a terrific fighter with one last great performance left in him. Paul Williams is another conqueror, both fighters beating Margarito with speed and precision.

10. Miguel Cotto
Wins
A: Mosley
B: Quintana, Judah and Clottey
C: Urkal and Jennings
D: Gomez

Losses
Margarito did a number on the Puerto Rican and I don't believe Cotto fully recovered from it. Having said that, there is the now infamous hand wrap scandal and it lessens the impact of the loss. Pacquiao finished off what was left of Cotto's impressive prime but there is no shame in losing to one of the best ever.

Feel to discuss, post your own lists with some sort of criteria. Let's discuss one of the best divisions in the sports history as civilised boxing fans.

I'm confused by your rankings. You have SHane beating Margs as an A win. You have ODH over sweet pea as an A win.Then you have floyd beating Shane as a D win.

YOu have Manny's wins over clottey and ODH as B wins, and you rank those equal to Hatton and above Zab and Baldomir for floyd.

Can you explain please?

[RAV3N]

I'm confused by your rankings. You have SHane beating Margs as an A win. You have ODH over sweet pea as an A win.Then you have floyd beating Shane as a D win.

YOu have Manny's wins over clottey and ODH as B wins, and you rank those equal to Hatton and above Zab and Baldomir for floyd.

Can you explain please?

He already explained it to you

So the first thing I did was divide their opponents faced into four categories: A, B, C and D. An "A" opponent is a terrific win, taking into account the opponent's position at the time of the fight, who was the favourite and the manner of victory.

I then looked at the overall skill level of the fighter, how good he was the weight, taking into account the physical basics: skill, power, punch resistance and stamina. Outside of the physical attributes and possibly more important is the skill level, ring IQ, ability to adapt to different styles and style. Losses were also taken into account, the manner of those losses and any controversial wins.

[UTEP]

I'm confused by your rankings. You have SHane beating Margs as an A win. You have ODH over sweet pea as an A win.Then you have floyd beating Shane as a D win.

YOu have Manny's wins over clottey and ODH as B wins, and you rank those equal to Hatton and above Zab and Baldomir for floyd.

Can you explain please?

Shane was 39 years old and coming off a 16 month lay off when Floyd fought him, that's definitely a D win.

[MisterHardtop]

I'm confused by your rankings. You have SHane beating Margs as an A win. You have ODH over sweet pea as an A win.Then you have floyd beating Shane as a D win.

YOu have Manny's wins over clottey and ODH as B wins, and you rank those equal to Hatton and above Zab and Baldomir for floyd.

Can you explain please?

Of course, Margarito at the time was coming off of beating Cotto....no, annihilating him and making him take a knee. Margarito was the baddest man in the division at the time. Mosley battered him. That is an "A" win.

Oscar beat Whitaker who at the time was undefeated at the weight, WBC champ and regarded as the best welterweight on the planet. Oscar beat him and although some say it was controversial, Oscar beat the best welterweight on the planet and caused Sweet Peas work rate to drop. Yes Whitaker made it difficult and the fight looked clumsy but some of those rights and lefts that Whitaker tasted in the early rounds made him decide he'd rather make it ugly than try to win. A win.

Mayweather beat an almost shot to hell version of Mosley, if I had a Z ranking I'd place that win there.

Clottey was one of the top 5 leading welterweights at the time who had given Cotto hell and a legitimate contender for Pacquiao. Not only did the Pacman win, he won a complete shutout, the gulf between the two was vast. The Oscar win is a "B" because the general consensus amongst fans, journalists and fighters was that Oscar would destroy Pacquiao, too big, too strong etc. Pacquiao knocked Oscar into retirement.

Baldomir is quite possibly the worst welterweight champion ever, who caught Judah going through one of his "phases". Mayweather won and yes he won the so called lineal title but he did not look impressive at all, other great welterweights of the past would have battered Baldomir into oblivion.

The Judah win is not an A because he had lost to Baldomir and because Mayweather struggled against him for 5 rounds, looking mediocre at best in those rounds. Yes he stepped it up but the performance was not exactly a classic, jaw dropping crowning of a great champion.

Hatton was moving up in weight and again, Mayweather was given hell for 10 rounds, especially the first 5 or 6, before the referee and Mayweather's conditioning kicked in.

[JDD1]

He already explained it to you

So the first thing I did was divide their opponents faced into four categories: A, B, C and D. An "A" opponent is a terrific win, taking into account the opponent's position at the time of the fight, who was the favourite and the manner of victory.

I then looked at the overall skill level of the fighter, how good he was the weight, taking into account the physical basics: skill, power, punch resistance and stamina. Outside of the physical attributes and possibly more important is the skill level, ring IQ, ability to adapt to different styles and style. Losses were also taken into account, the manner of those losses and any controversial wins.

If you use the opponents position at time of fight-floyd's wins over Hatton, Zab, Shane and Baldo at 147 all far exceed where clotey or ODH were ranked at 147 when the fight occured. Its as if ODH is given credit for where he was at 147 before, not where he was at the time of the fight.

ODH was favored against Manny but I don't know if any smart diehard fans had ODH beating him.

He criticizes floyd for missing Margs, williams, cotto and Pac. Ok. Manny missed all the same guys at 147, with the exception of cotto at 145.

Shane was 39 years old and coming off a 16 month lay off when Floyd fought him, that's definitely a D win.

Shane was considered the best ww after beating Marg. ODH returned to 147 after notr being ther for years and far more "shot" than Shane. There is no way the Shane win is less than the ODH win.

SHane and floyd, was the first meeting of #1 and #2 ranked ww's in a long time, even though ring had Manny at #1 everyone else had Shane there.

[RAV3N]

If you use the opponents position at time of fight-floyd's wins over Hatton, Zab, Shane and Baldo at 147 all far exceed where clotey or ODH were ranked at 147 when the fight occured. Its as if ODH is given credit for where he was at 147 before, not where he was at the time of the fight.

ODH was favored against Manny but I don't know if any smart diehard fans had ODH beating him.

He criticizes floyd for missing Margs, williams, cotto and Pac. Ok. Manny missed all the same guys at 147, with the exception of cotto at 145.

Why is everything about Floyd and Manny.

Did you just make this account to only argue about floyd and manny? Pac > Floyd's resume and it wont change before they retire.

I personally think that its a well thought out list myself.