Post Benitez/Leonard/Hearns/Duran Welterweight Top 20

[MisterHardtop]

There is a great thread on this forum focusing on the best welterweights since the era of the Fab 4, or the Triumphant 3, considering that the Marvelous One never fought at welterweight. Anyway, this got me thinking of the 20 best names in the division since, how would I rate them? Where do they stand? How many of them can be considered great (strictly looking at their welterweight standings)? What criteria would I use?

So the first thing I did was divide their opponents faced into four categories: A, B, C and D. An "A" opponent is a terrific win, taking into account the opponent's position at the time of the fight, who was the favourite and the manner of victory.

I then looked at the overall skill level of the fighter, how good he was the weight, taking into account the physical basics: skill, power, punch resistance and stamina. Outside of the physical attributes and possibly more important is the skill level, ring IQ, ability to adapt to different styles and style. Losses were also taken into account, the manner of those losses and any controversial wins.

Using the above criteria, I have come up with the following top 10 (remainder of the top 20 will follow):

1. Oscar De La Hoya
Wins
A: Whitaker and Quartey
B: Carr
C: Chavez Sr, Rivera, Gatti and Camacho
D: Kamau, Charpentier and Coley

Losses
A very controversial first loss to Felix Trinidad, which really should be a win, with Oscar winning between 7-9 rounds on most cards outside of the judges involved. Second loss to Shane Mosley (SD), a very good fighter in his own right and the leading lightweight at the time. Shrouded in PED controversy. Neither loss takes away too much from Oscar's terrific run at 147lb.

2. Felix Trinidad
Wins
A: -
B: DLH, Carr and Camacho
C: Whitaker, Garcia and Pineda
D: The remainder of his IBF defences

Losses
Trinidad was unbeaten in his time as welterweight titlist, largely due to his power, size, exceptional ability to cut fighters off and favourable judges. Regarded as one of the most dangerous punchers ever at welterweight.

3. Shane Mosley
Wins
A: DLH and Margarito
B: -
C: Collazo and Rivera
D: Diaz, Taylor, Cano, Wise and co.

Losses
Losses have come against the best guys in the division, including the likes of Forrest and Cotto, his two most recent defeats have come as an almost shot fighter against Mayweather and Pacquiao. The Cotto fight was exceptionally close.

4. Manny Pacquiao
Wins
A: Cotto
B: DLH and Clottey
C: Rios and Marquez
D: Mosley

Losses
The only true loss for Pacquiao at welterweight has come at the hands of long time rival Marquez, who stopped the Filipino in 6, exhilarating rounds. One of the best welterweight contests in recent years. The other loss should actually be in the "A" win column, with Bradley squeaking by in one of the most disgraceful judging decisions in recent memory.

5. Floyd Mayweather
Wins
A: -
B: Hatton
C: Judah, Marquez, Guerrero and Baldomir
D: Mosley, Mitchell and Ortiz

Losses
There are none, which speaks volumes and tells us one of 2 things, either Mayweather is exceptionally skilled or he hasn't fought all the best names available. In fact, both conclusions are legitimate. Mayweather is indeed exceptional skilled but has has missed out on welterweight bouts with Margarito, Williams, Cotto and Pacquiao.

6. Lloyd Honeyghan
Wins
A: Curry
B: Blocker and Bumphus
C: Hatcher, Kil-Chung, Mittee and Vaca
D: String of fights for Commonwealth, British and European titles

Losses
Losses to Marlon Starling and Jorce Vaca stand out but Honeyghan was suffering by this stage and no longer at his best for various reasons. To his credit, he only lost to the best in his division at the time.

7. Donald Curry
Wins
A: -
B: McCrory and Starling 2x
C: Diaz, Rocca and Stafford
D: Number of opponents

Losses
Of course, there is the surprising loss to Lloyd Honeyghan and the subsequent decline. It is important to note that this was his only loss at the weight.

8. Vernon Forrest
Wins
A: Mosley 2x
B: -
C: Frank and Phillips
D: Stone, Griffin amongst others

Losses
A brutal stoppage at the hands of Ricardo Mayorga derailed what could have been a great career at welterweight, sending Forrest 7lb north.

9. Antonio Margarito
Wins
A: Cotto
B: Cintron and Clottey
C: Diaz, Santos and Kyvelos
D: Notable wins in this category are Martinez, Kamau and Randall

Losses
The biggest of defeats came against Shane Mosley, a terrific fighter with one last great performance left in him. Paul Williams is another conqueror, both fighters beating Margarito with speed and precision.

10. Miguel Cotto
Wins
A: Mosley
B: Quintana, Judah and Clottey
C: Urkal and Jennings
D: Gomez

Losses
Margarito did a number on the Puerto Rican and I don't believe Cotto fully recovered from it. Having said that, there is the now infamous hand wrap scandal and it lessens the impact of the loss. Pacquiao finished off what was left of Cotto's impressive prime but there is no shame in losing to one of the best ever.

Feel to discuss, post your own lists with some sort of criteria. Let's discuss one of the best divisions in the sports history as civilised boxing fans.

[baya]

I like.

didnt mosley lose to collazo?

[MisterHardtop]

No no, if I'm not mistaken, I believe Mosley won by UD.

[jas]

Margarito should be omitted based on putting bricks in his gloves

Having him above cotto smh


And Mosley tested positive for hgh for delahoya fight, his biggest win. Mayweather would have beaten this steroid user in his prime.

[jas]

Also which is more important , resume or skill level?

[MisterHardtop]

Margarito should be omitted based on putting bricks in his gloves

Having him above cotto smh


And Mosley tested positive for hgh for delahoya fight, his biggest win. Mayweather would have beaten this steroid user in his prime.

Margarito was only found guilty in the Mosley fight and even then there have been many exaggerations made. Prior to that, Margarito was one of the most avoided and dangerous fighters on the planet. The fact that he made Cotto drop out, something I haven't seen since, makes me rank him higher (of course, I did mention the controversy).

Mosley admitted to using certain PEDs for the Oscar rematch, I do not remember him testing positive at any stage. The rematch was fought at light middle and not welterweight.

We can not talk about how Mayweather may have beaten Mosley in his prime, considering that fight was not made and Mayweather did not want it either.

[MisterHardtop]

Also which is more important , resume or skill level?

Both go hand in hand, especially on how opponents were beaten and how far above in terms of skill you were compared to your contemporaries. There is no point in having all the skill on the planet if your opponents are not up to scratch or if you do not beat them as convincingly as other great fighters do to similar types of opponents.

[jas]

Margarito was only found guilty in the Mosley fight and even then there have been many exaggerations made. Prior to that, Margarito was one of the most avoided and dangerous fighters on the planet. The fact that he made Cotto drop out, something I haven't seen since, makes me rank him higher (of course, I did mention the controversy).

Mosley admitted to using certain PEDs for the Oscar rematch, I do not remember him testing positive at any stage. The rematch was fought at light middle and not welterweight.

We can not talk about how Mayweather may have beaten Mosley in his prime, considering that fight was not made and Mayweather did not want it either.

Mosleys trainer: "a block fell out" which part is exaggerated? Either a block fell out or it didn't. He either loaded his gloves or he didn't.

Inspector: It looked like a cast plaster

[MisterHardtop]

Mosleys trainer: "a block fell out" which part is exaggerated? Either a block fell out or it didn't. He either loaded his gloves or he didn't.

Inspector: It looked like a cast plaster

Naazim Richardson was the trainer I believe? He exaggerated, a block or anything of that sort did not fall out.

What was evidenced, as is shown in the case files, was that the gauge used to wrap Margarito's hands contained very minimal traces of substances that may be used in plaster and that the gauge was harder than normal. I'm not saying Margarito is innocent but the story has become convoluted.

[jas]

Naazim Richardson was the trainer I believe? He exaggerated, a block or anything of that sort did not fall out.

What was evidenced, as is shown in the case files, was that the gauge used to wrap Margarito's hands contained very minimal traces of substances that may be used in plaster and that the gauge was harder than normal. I'm not saying Margarito is innocent but the story has become convoluted.

So now you are calling a devout religious man a liar

Besides, he said it in the build up to Mosley mayweather fight. Why would he lie