Prime Leonard v Prime RJJ - SMW - who wins?

[BUNGALOWS]

If you're talking about 2 guys at completely different weights fighting in THEIR PRIMES, it must mean this is a p4p contest, meaning that the weight of the fight is irrelevant.

So, with that in mind, prime v prime, Leonard beats RJJ, any day of the week, Jones speed may startle Leonard at times and his reflexes will require sublime timing but Leonard adjusts half way through the fight and stops RJJ any round past the 9th or 10th.

In real life, you can't do that though. It's what made Roy so special. If you condensed Roy into a fit and trim WW, then wouldn't he be even faster, and deadlier? Would you even be able to touch him?

Just like you can't make a hypothetical with Tyson. What made him special is the fact that he was a HW, and he was so fast, quick, and powerful.

And just like you can't turn Pacquiao into a HW, and try to hypothesize that. If you made a HW Pacquiao, he might kill every HW in the ring.

[soul_survivor]

In real life, you can't do that though. It's what made Roy so special. If you condensed Roy into a fit and trim WW, then wouldn't he be even faster, and deadlier? Would you even be able to touch him?

Just like you can't make a hypothetical with Tyson. What made him special is the fact that he was a HW, and he was so fast, quick, and powerful.

And just like you can't turn Pacquiao into a HW, and try to hypothesize that. If you made a HW Pacquiao, he might kill every HW in the ring.

But that's the whole point of p4p discussions, without weight being an issue, who wins based on talent, skill, speed, power etc. It's not about condensing anyone into other weights or making them bigger, it's simply weight NOT BEING AN ISSUE. That's the whole reason why the term p4p came about, the question that was being answered was: can Ray Robinson, with his skill, power, speed, ring IQ etc beat any fighter on the planet if weight wasn't an issue?

Since then, the tradition has carried on and the only way we can have a fantasy fight between SRL and RJJ is if we are talking about both men in a p4p sense. A prime SRL never fought above 154, a prime RJJ never fought below 168 (imo the version that beat Bhop was not prime). So even in terms of "Fantasy" fights, this just wouldn't work when you bring in the term prime, because both men were primed at vastly different weights.

[BUNGALOWS]

But that's the whole point of p4p discussions, without weight being an issue, who wins based on talent, skill, speed, power etc. It's not about condensing anyone into other weights or making them bigger, it's simply weight NOT BEING AN ISSUE. That's the whole reason why the term p4p came about, the question that was being answered was: can Ray Robinson, with his skill, power, speed, ring IQ etc beat any fighter on the planet if weight wasn't an issue?

Since then, the tradition has carried on and the only way we can have a fantasy fight between SRL and RJJ is if we are talking about both men in a p4p sense. A prime SRL never fought above 154, a prime RJJ never fought below 168 (imo the version that beat Bhop was not prime). So even in terms of "Fantasy" fights, this just wouldn't work when you bring in the term prime, because both men were primed at vastly different weights.

I get that, but I'm just saying there's a flaw in that logic.

If you let RJJ keep all his attributes, but then weight wasn't an issue, he'd still win. His main attributes were him being faster than everyone, better reflexes than anyone. Power compared to his weight class was great. He was virtually untouchable, and he could move around the ring like a cat.

If weight wasn't an issue, than RJJ still wins in a H2H. You have to give him the same attributes that make him special at HIS weight class.

[BUNGALOWS]

Just like how I think you can't judge Wlad at HW, because if weights weren't an issue, then that doesn't make sense. The reason why he's so effective is because of his size.

I don't see any lighter weight fighters, overpowering there opponents, jabbing them to death, then hugging and wearing them out once they get close.

Does this make sense to you?

[PainfromUkraine]

I'm keeping track of what you guys are discussing and it's interesting but may I clear up that I selected the weight, first SMW and then changed to MW as I wanted to make it a realistic potential matchup, more specifically each fighter in their 'peak' in terms of age, physical capabilities, punch resistance, speed etc.

P4P is I think too unrealistic, I wanted to make it a real potential matchup at a weight where perhaps it wouldn't be the absolute best weight for either fighter, but they would be fighting in their peak conditions in terms of the criteria I mentioned.

[richardt]

Remember! They were 15 round fights. If both were the same natural size, Leonard would win a 15 round decision. Jones has never seen the 13th, 14th, and 15th rounds and that is a question mark on him.

[bojangles1987]

If you're talking about 2 guys at completely different weights fighting in THEIR PRIMES, it must mean this is a p4p contest, meaning that the weight of the fight is irrelevant.

So, with that in mind, prime v prime, Leonard beats RJJ, any day of the week, Jones speed may startle Leonard at times and his reflexes will require sublime timing but Leonard adjusts half way through the fight and stops RJJ any round past the 9th or 10th.

H2H, there are very few fighters above Roy Jones. He wasn't just speed, he had the skills to use that speed and control his opponent. A somehow possible p4p matchup between a prime Leonard and Roy would be very, very hard for Leonard to deal with.

[boliodogs]

That is easy. Leonard's best fighting weight in his prime was 147 to maybe 154. He was never a 168 pounder and when he fought Hearns and Duran in 168 pound title fights he made them agree to a top weight of 164 pounds or no fight. That's right. Leonard was the real original catchweight king. Roy Jones in his prime was unbeatable at 168 pounds. He was the best super middleweight in history in my opinion and I think most fans and experts would agree. A prime Jones vs. a prime Leonard at 168 would be a mismatch and Leonard would be KOed in a few rounds.

[PainfromUkraine]

That is easy. Leonard's best fighting weight in his prime was 147 to maybe 154. He was never a 168 pounder and when he fought Hearns and Duran in 168 pound title fights he made them agree to a top weight of 164 pounds or no fight. That's right. Leonard was the real original catchweight king. Roy Jones in his prime was unbeatable at 168 pounds. He was the best super middleweight in history in my opinion and I think most fans and experts would agree. A prime Jones vs. a prime Leonard at 168 would be a mismatch and Leonard would be KOed in a few rounds.

How about at 160?

[IMDAZED]

Obviously at 168 Jones wins but the pound for pound debate is much more interesting. Leonard's dossier is much, much better and he's deservedly rated far higher than Jones. But in terms of a head to head, pound for pound battle I have a hard time picking anyone over Roy Jones Jr. at his best.