Jack Johnson is no hero

[j]

wow, i can't believe this thread passed by my radar.

i noticed that a lot of people had seen the ken burns doc, but who here besides me has read the companion book? actually, the video is more like the companion to the book.

never read about him beating the **** out of any of his women though. i do remember that he had raised a hand to one or two of his girls, but i'm sure if he had intended to literally beat the **** out of 'em they would been hospitalized at some point.

jack wasn't necessarily an advocate for the promotion of black rights specifically, but he was down for the equalization of races. i don't remember his words specifically, but when asked about how he deals with racism, he basically said he views it as if it doesn't exist. he had also opened cafe de champion - a place open to people of all races without discrimination. he certainly was ahead of his time with his view on the race situation.

if anyone has questions on jack, ask away. i have a section of my library dedicated to jack which includes biographies, auto-biographies, and a wealth of information on his life in general and even whole books written about particular fights.

[j]

actually now id do remember reading about one of his girls being in the hospital for some reason, but i believe i had also read that jack was there with her the whole time. details are fuzzy at best. i'll have to thumb through some of my books and see if i can find any info for those who want to know.

one thing i thought i should also mention is that the newspapers back in those days were very racist themselves and had made a considerable effort to villianize johnson.

[BLOODSHED]

That seems really passively denying racism in the society. Then you had to be outspoken and not quietly fighting against injustices back then.

I can see why he was called a race traitor. His passiveness was useless if people were being hung for the color of their skin.

If you could recommend a book that would be great. Dude and I have talked a lot about Jack Jackson. Sounds like an interesting era he was from.

jack wasn't necessarily an advocate for the promotion of black rights specifically, but he was down for the equalization of races. i don't remember his words specifically, but when asked about how he deals with racism, he basically said he views it as if it doesn't exist. he had also opened cafe de champion - a place open to people of all races without discrimination. he certainly was ahead of his time with his view on the race situation.

[Kid Achilles]

Show me the quote from Dempsey that proves he was racist. He signed to fight Wills and was willing, but powers above him decided that fight would not take place. As an individual Dempsey did not have a racist bone in him as far as I know. I also know for a fact that George Godfrey was one of Dempseys favorite sparring partners and the two of them were good friends. Show me evidence of Dempsey's racism before you lump him in with Sullivan and the others.

[butterfly1964]

Show me the quote from Dempsey that proves he was racist. He signed to fight Wills and was willing, but powers above him decided that fight would not take place. As an individual Dempsey did not have a racist bone in him as far as I know. I also know for a fact that George Godfrey was one of Dempseys favorite sparring partners and the two of them were good friends. Show me evidence of Dempsey's racism before you lump him in with Sullivan and the others.

yeah, dempsey was not a racist by a long shot.

[LondonRingRules]

Based on what I've heard about Unforgivable Blackness from Ken Burns and others, it appears that Jack Johnson will be portrayed as an arrogant yet ultimately noble man. I have some issues with this.

There is no doubt that Johnson was oppressed because of his race, and was betrayed by his government and indicted on phony charges because the general public did not want a black heavyweight champion, especially one that was so arrogant. This, however, does not make him a good person. Jack Johnson was notorious for horrendously beating his girlfriends. I don't maen he lost his temper once and did something he later regretted...I mean he brutally beat these girls over and over and never learned his lesson. This is not something that should be celebrated.

Interestingly enough, the only reason the feds could nail Johnon on the Mann act was because one of his old girlfriends that he beat around was so ticked off that she said whatever the government wanted to hear.

He wasn't even an advocate for African-American rights. Johnson had no interest in advancing the interests of African-Americans...he was only interested in himself. He refused to fight any other black challengers after he won the title because he knew that a white audience would not pay to see to black men fight for the title. In his later years he was always openly critical of other black boxing superstars, most notably Joe Louis. He always predicted that Louis would lose his fights and always made a point of criticizing his skills.

Was Johnson a great fighter? Yes. Was he railroaded by his own government? Absolutely. But was he a man worth honouring? No way, at least not as much as Burns appears to be doing.

** You appear to specialize in being totally wrong on most every point.

1. The Mann act charges were legit and Johnson admitted guilt.

2. Johnson may have slapped one of his wives are girlfriends on occasion, but he was actually known for being very generous and courteous with them.

3. Johnson was a great fighter, but he was also highly overrated. He turned down bigger money to fight Langford to fight for much less against Moran, so the money angle is dead wrong. He was afraid of losing his title.

4. Modern blacks usually do consider him a hero. Of course most of them know about as much as you do about him, about zip!

[j]

bloodshed, anybody viewing him as a race traitor probably hasn't read much about him.

being too pro black, especially back then, is like being pro white nowadays. it would be viewed as something other than what it actually is. besides that, i like the concept of being equal as opposed to simply boosting one side over the other.

a few books i recommend:

ken burns' unforgivable blackness(the book of course as it has much much more info on jack than the video.

jack johnson is a dandy - a decent autobiography if you can find it. my copy is from 1969.

keep in mind, however, that like a lot of great fighters from the early days of boxing that some of the material might not be 100% accurate.

these are just a couple of books that i have regarding jack specifically, but they provide a fairly wide scope of jack and his views. the autobiography that he wrote probably best describes and demonstrates the way he thought as opposed to second hand accounts.