Jack Johnson is no hero

[Sir_Jose]

Drinking and beating your wives were very common occurances in those days (especially if you were a boxer; exposed to drinking, **********s, ********, bad childhood, taken advantage by white promoters) so he shouldnt be considered evil due to those certain actions.
As for the whole him being critical of Joe Louis, I think that was due to the fact that Joe Louis sought the white man's approval. He wouldnt gamble, or be photographed with women or a drink in his hand, he was the opposite of what Jack Johnson was. Jack didnt care about how he was viewed throught the eyes of the white man. He wasn't trying to please them he was trying to be who he wanted to be, and I think that is why he is celebrated because he showed millions of black people that they don't have to conform to the white man's world...they can be whoever they want.
I also believe that Jack Johnson wasn't trying to be a hero on purpose...he was just simply trying to make the most outta life, and on the way affected an entire nation and secured his spot in history the first black heavyweight champion, and one of the greatest boxers ever for his time.

Exactly. You hit the nail right on the head about Joe Louis. People also forget Ali used to call Joe Louis an Uncle Tom whenever he was aksed about him for the same reasons.

[dino]

Drinking and beating your wives were very common occurances in those days (especially if you were a boxer; exposed to drinking, **********s, ********, bad childhood, taken advantage by white promoters) so he shouldnt be considered evil due to those certain actions.
As for the whole him being critical of Joe Louis, I think that was due to the fact that Joe Louis sought the white man's approval. He wouldnt gamble, or be photographed with women or a drink in his hand, he was the opposite of what Jack Johnson was. Jack didnt care about how he was viewed throught the eyes of the white man. He wasn't trying to please them he was trying to be who he wanted to be, and I think that is why he is celebrated because he showed millions of black people that they don't have to conform to the white man's world...they can be whoever they want.
I also believe that Jack Johnson wasn't trying to be a hero on purpose...he was just simply trying to make the most outta life, and on the way affected an entire nation and secured his spot in history the first black heavyweight champion, and one of the greatest boxers ever for his time.

jack johnson didnt bow down to white ppl..and im sure u hate that..white ppl know call him arrogant

[Johnny_Rocket]

jack johnson didnt bow down to white ppl..and im sure u hate that..white ppl know call him arrogant

Why would I hate the fact that he didn't bow down to white people?

[Sister Sledge]

Jack Johnson fought a lot of black fighters when he was up and coming, but he was getting paid a lot of money just because whites at that time wanted to see him lose. I don't blame him for capitalizing on the media and the public's desire to see him lose and bring the title back to the white man. He played the villian perfectly and was a masterful boxer.
I don't think he should be honored, but I would whole-heartedly watch anything about him. He was a great champion

[phallus]

Drinking and beating your wives were very common occurances in those days (especially if you were a boxer; exposed to drinking, **********s, ********, bad childhood, taken advantage by white promoters) so he shouldnt be considered evil due to those certain actions.
As for the whole him being critical of Joe Louis, I think that was due to the fact that Joe Louis sought the white man's approval. He wouldnt gamble, or be photographed with women or a drink in his hand, he was the opposite of what Jack Johnson was. Jack didnt care about how he was viewed throught the eyes of the white man. He wasn't trying to please them he was trying to be who he wanted to be, and I think that is why he is celebrated because he showed millions of black people that they don't have to conform to the white man's world...they can be whoever they want.
I also believe that Jack Johnson wasn't trying to be a hero on purpose...he was just simply trying to make the most outta life, and on the way affected an entire nation and secured his spot in history the first black heavyweight champion, and one of the greatest boxers ever for his time.

johnson was uneducated, and he most likely had a hard life, most guys that come out of backgrounds like that just focus on survival of the fittest - looking out for number one - THEMSELVES. i don't think johnson ever thought of himself as a hero, in fact i think he had low self esteem from the ways he lived and referred to himself. he's basically a street guy who came out of poverty and had to do whatever he could to survive, and times were a lot tougher back then. we can't blame johnson for being a bastard, if i was in his situation i can't see how i'd be any different. we can't judge johnson by the white middle class standards of today, he to be an animal to survive in his times

[MetalVomit]

This has been the most interesting thread i have ever read.

[Boxerdog]

I think that what Johnson did is WAAAY more impressive than what Jackie Robinson did. He was beating white dudes the *** UP!
You KNOW that every fight there were people there who wanted to kill him!

[Bombardier]

I understand what a lot of you guys (jose, Johnny Rocket and beeatch) are trying to say. I know that to a lot of people Johnson represented freedom in the most oppresive of conditions. It was Jim Crow America and African Americans were being ostracized, humiliated and even lynched without any consequences for the people doing these evil deeds. The fact that he won the most coveted title in sports decades before true integration was even an idea is incredible. The fact that he did this while making a point to embarass his white oppressors so intelligently (because he was an intelligent man) is also rather incredible. He worked hard and rose to a level unthinkable for African Americans at the time and did so without compromising himself in any way.

The problem I have is that many people, possibly including Burns, cannot seem to separate the myth of the man from the true facts. Yes, he accomplished all these great things, but he did not do so with the noble intentions normally associated with him. Not that that's a big deal: as you have all pointed out, it would be difficult to expect much more from him coming out of such harsh conditions. But that doesn't mean we should ignore the negative aspects of his character: the ego, the selfishness, the violence.

Look at it this way: would you want your kids looking up to someone when they were not getting the whole story about them? Isn't it better to explain to your kids that someone can do great things and still be a flawed person? If it is partly because of circumstances that Jack Johnson was a flawed individual, isn't it better to show them how racism and oppression can turn someone bad?

I worry that people are getting the wrong impression about Johnson. He is one of the most fascinating and complex people ever to come out of professional sports, and it does nobody any good to try to simplify his story.

[Bombardier]

Exactly. You hit the nail right on the head about Joe Louis. People also forget Ali used to call Joe Louis an Uncle Tom whenever he was aksed about him for the same reasons.

Yes, but Ali was friends with Louis when Louis was older. Hell, Ali called everyone an Uncle Tom at some point or another. He said that about Louis when he was young and his views were more radicalized then they were later on.

People are unfair to Louis by calling him this. It was his manager (who was black) who made sure that Louis was never pcitured with a drink in his hand, with a white woman, etc. He was the one who told him what to say and how to act in front of white reporters. The reasons he did this is because he knew taht because of Jack Johnson the public had no appetite for another arrogant black champion. He knew that in order for Louis to be accepted and get the fights he needed to win and hold onto the heavyweight championship there was no way he could remind people at all of Jack.

Basically Louis and his manager acted this way for money and fame. If you want to call them Uncle Toms, fine. But remember this: Louis accomplised more for African Americans than all but a handfull of individuals. Because he was so beloved by white fans he made life easier for other African Americans. There was still a LONG way to go, of course, but partly because of Louis the first steps were taken.

Sometimes you can be more of a man by quietly ignoring the ignorance of others than by confronting them with violence, especially if your scarifice will help others. At least Louis was naturally a laid back individual, as opposed to Jackie Robinson, who was a bit of a hothead and had to learn to control his temper while white fans taunted him. Interestingly, Louis helped "coach" Robinson to act this way while they served together in World War 2.

[Mr. Ryan]

If you're going to get on Johnson, why not Dempsey or one of these other guys as well. It was easy to see Johnson was no choir boy, and he wasn't expected to be either.