The all new, Mayweather/Pac Master Discussion Thread - The fight that will never be.

[Brother Jay]

No the real problem is that you don't read.

I will repeat some:
Baldomir was champ. Right? Is that all Floyd fans care about? Not whether he was really a top/elite fighter at WW? Who was riskier, Cotto or the champ Baldomir?

I can bring up almost all of Floyd's opponents at WW and say the same but if you guys ignore facts and truth and live and die by rankings only (see above example of Baldomir) or whether they won or lost their last fight, that is not my problem.
Example: Ali lost to Frazier & Norton .... Is Ali not a risk for you Floyd fans? Go ask Foreman and get back to me please.

Last point is, who are you looking for Manny to fight that he hasn't already?

Manny is probably going to fight Marquez 4 times now ... and that is Manny's toughest opponent to date. Manny fought Morales 3X ... and at the time, he was the toughest opponent to date.

Manny was negotiating to fight Floyd for only his 3rd fight at WW .... while after 5 years of Floyd being at WW, he put roadblocks once boxing fans asked him to fight Manny.

You guys can spin it whichever way you want but I don't care that Baldomir was champ, Marquez was ranked #2 P4P, Hatton was champ, Khan was champ, .... and so on because that can only fool you Floyd fans!!!

The real problem is that you debating from a position of ignorance.

What difference does it make concerning what Floyd fans care about?

What ANY fan cares about doesn't affect legacy value. Its the rank and condition of the fighter going into any given fight that determines how valuable or not valuable a win is.

Floyd has consistently faced the best .. who are defined as the fighters who are ranked 1st, 2nd and 3rd. Floyd has done this in every division.

Manny has often sought vacant titles to make a case for being a champion .. which is often seen as being ranked among the top 3 or 4. That's crap.

At WW, Manny sought out losers with big name recognition one after the other. He did it 6 times in total.

ADP02, you say that Manny went after the bigger threat? That's preposterous. The biggest threat Manny ever went after was JMM .. and we know this because JMM is the ONLY opponent that Pacquiao has faced who was still on top and winning albeit in a new and different division.

Every other opponent Pacquiao has elected to face was coming off a career loss or was coming off a career loss with a tune up in between.

Save the hot air for Pacland.

Manny Pacquiao has carefully selected his opponents in the past few years based on beatability and how recently their confidence had been shattered. There is little glory in defeating a 5th ranked opponent who once was at the top but has been dethroned and broken.

Manny Pacquiao had a chance to face many of them when they were still on top. He opted not to. He waited until Floyd beat DLH, Hatton and Mosley. He waited for Margarito to destroy Cotto. And he waited for Mosley to knock out Margarito.

Those men were practically BEGGING for a match with Pacquiao. And he turned them all down on several occasions WHILE THEY WERE STILL WINNING!

Get real and get a grip.

Manny's campaign at WW was a carefully and extremely calculated exercise in cherry picking. Real champions fight other champions. The true best seek those who are rated in the coveted first, second and third spots. Those spots belong to the true contenders of a division.

No matter how much or how often you post, your efforts won't change those facts. Its clear that you really have a desire for your point to be seem as legitimate, but it really isn't. And you know it. Which is why you have been ducking, dodging and parrying facts like your life depended on it.

Nice try, but still you are weak.

[WESS]

I know what you said about WW ..... but you have yet to prove how Floyd's resume is far better than Manny at WW .... get my question?
Who in Floyd's resume at WW is better than Cotto?
Clottey, Oscar, Bradley & Cotto would have given everyone on Floyd's resume big time problems. Even the Marquez that Manny fought was better than that which Floyd fought.

If Floyd's is so much better (not asking to name all ATG fighters) then it would have to be obvious to everyone. Right? OK then you or brother Jay, show me how its so much better that Manny's resume at WW .... because if its close to Manny's resume or just slightly better then Floyd's resume SUCKS too.... right?

Answer the questions and you will see the truth as to why Floyd has a better record. Yes, it is actually that easy. You're basing your entire argument on this personal opinion that Pac fought Cotto at WW which is supposed to make Pac's record better at WW.

Did you not look at where Cotto was ranked WHEN Pac fought him? Do you NOT look at the rank of where Hoya, Clottey, Mosley and JMM where at WW when Pac fought them? Did you NOT look at what Margarito was ranked WHEN Pac fought him at JMW? Rank and where they where at the time of the fight is a MAJOR aspect when judging the fight. not just a name.

You have a serious serious serious problem with looking at WHO and not WHEN. See previous post about Trevor Berbick.

[ADP02]

The real problem is that you debating from a position of ignorance.

What difference does it make concerning what Floyd fans care about?

What ANY fan cares about doesn't affect legacy value. Its the rank and condition of the fighter going into any given fight that determines how valuable or not valuable a win is.

Floyd has consistently faced the best .. who are defined as the fighters who are ranked 1st, 2nd and 3rd. Floyd has done this in every division.

Manny has often sought vacant titles to make a case for being a champion .. which is often seen as being ranked among the top 3 or 4. That's crap.

At WW, Manny sought out losers with big name recognition one after the other. He did it 6 times in total.

ADP02, you say that Manny went after the bigger threat? That's preposterous. The biggest threat Manny ever went after was JMM .. and we know this because JMM is the ONLY opponent that Pacquiao has faced who was still on top and winning albeit in a new and different division.

Every other opponent Pacquiao has elected to face was coming off a career loss or was coming off a career loss with a tune up in between.

Save the hot air for Pacland.

Manny Pacquiao has carefully selected his opponents in the past few years based on beatability and how recently their confidence had been shattered. There is little glory in defeating a 5th ranked opponent who once was at the top but has been dethroned and broken.

Manny Pacquiao had a chance to face many of them when they were still on top. He opted not to. He waited until Floyd beat DLH, Hatton and Mosley. He waited for Margarito to destroy Cotto. And he waited for Mosley to knock out Margarito.

Those men were practically BEGGING for a match with Pacquiao. And he turned them all down on several occasions WHILE THEY WERE STILL WINNING!

Get real and get a grip.

Manny's campaign at WW was a carefully and extremely calculated exercise in cherry picking. Real champions fight other champions. The true best seek those who are rated in the coveted first, second and third spots. Those spots belong to the true contenders of a division.

No matter how much or how often you post, your efforts won't change those facts. Its clear that you really have a desire for your point to be seem as legitimate, but it really isn't. And you know it. Which is why you have been ducking, dodging and parrying facts like your life depended on it.

Nice try, but still you are weak.

Answer the questions and you will see the truth as to why Floyd has a better record. Yes, it is actually that easy. You're basing your entire argument on this personal opinion that Pac fought Cotto at WW which is supposed to make Pac's record better at WW.

Did you not look at where Cotto was ranked WHEN Pac fought him? Do you NOT look at the rank of where Hoya, Clottey, Mosley and JMM where at WW when Pac fought them? Did you NOT look at what Margarito was ranked WHEN Pac fought him at JMW? Rank and where they where at the time of the fight is a MAJOR aspect when judging the fight. not just a name.

You have a serious serious serious problem with looking at WHO and not WHEN. See previous post about Trevor Berbick.

again, when Manny fought Oscar, Cotto, Clottey and Bradley many boxing fans and analysts said that Manny's opponents have a good chance if not a great chance of defeating Manny.

This was not the case for almost all of Floyd's fights.

AGAIN, you can say that Baldomir was ranked high and the champ but he was a C fighter so it doesn't matter how high that bum was ranked .... this is like saying that Vladimir will face a mandatory fighter next and be all impressed about it ..... man, am I talking to people who know boxing or not here? You can just defend your hero Floyd up to a certain point ....

Just show me, fighter to fighter with your own analysis as to how Floyd's opponents make his resume so much better than Manny's at WW.

GO! Again, can't be so hard if its so easy but all you do is say Baldomir was a champ and ranked high .... WTF!!!

[Prince_Pugilist]

hey guys, this will be my first proper post on the site and what better way to kick it off than with a discussion on Floyd/Pac.

I've read a few points on here, all of which are going back and forth between who is the greater fighter and/or has a better resume at 147. I don't really want to drop into this argument too much simply because it ends up going in circles and both fighters have rabid fans. What I will say is this, overall, Pacquiao has the better resume and is overall the greater fighter. Moving quickly onto what/who has held this fight back, I think it's been both guys and their managers/promoters etc BUT a larger percentage of the blame must lie with Floyd. Again, I won't go too much into the details why I believe that simply because it's been argued ad nauseam.

The main point I'd like to make is this:

Manny Pacquiao v Floyd Mayweather will happen! I guarantee it will be made for 2013, after Pac gets past JMM/Bradley and Floyd has a "tune up" bout late 2012, early 2013. Even if Pac loses his next fight, which is highly likely simply because I believe Arum is ready to cash out his biggest money maker, Floyd will be looking to have the fight made, seeing that Manny has slipped over the course of his last 2-3 fights faster than most of us expected.

There was a time when this was a 50/50 match up BUT Floyd will clearly be a winner come summer 2013.

[Brother Jay]

again, when Manny fought Oscar, Cotto, Clottey and Bradley many boxing fans and analysts said that Manny's opponents have a good chance if not a great chance of defeating Manny.

Right there above ... that one of your biggest crutches: You completely base your arguments and points on what others SAID instead of what others DID. The chances that anyone gave Pacquiao has no bearing on the elements of the match. Pacquiao targeted ALL of the above with the exception of Bradley once someone ELSE defeated them first. Therefore, they all dropped in rank by the time Pacquiao was willing to face them.

Admit this fact to yourself and you'll shed the illusions that you've been clinging to.

This was not the case for almost all of Floyd's fights.

The last time Floyd was an underdog was against Diego Corrales. That's not because his opponents weren't champions and/or ranked in the top 3. Its was because Floyd is and has always been seen as a phenom.

AGAIN, you can say that Baldomir was ranked high and the champ but he was a C fighter so it doesn't matter how high that bum was ranked

Baldomir defeated the #1 WW in the world. So no matter what YOUR opinion may be, it is insignificant among the facts. Baldomir actually EARNED his ranking, unlike Manny Pacquiao who had Arum set up Margarito as a jrMW contender so that Pacquiao could avoid any real jrMW threats while competing for a jrMW belt.

.... this is like saying that Vladimir will face a mandatory fighter next and be all impressed about it ..... man, am I talking to people who know boxing or not here? You can just defend your hero Floyd up to a certain point ....

Vladimir has faced mandatory fighters before and he's been knocked out by them as well! You clearly don't know much about boxing before Pacquiao. and I don't have to expose that as you're doing a bang up job of exposing yourself.

Just show me, fighter to fighter with your own analysis as to how Floyd's opponents make his resume so much better than Manny's at WW.

I've done that already.

Floyd has consistently faced the #1, 2 and 3 fighters in EVERY division.

At WW, Manny Pacquiao targeted ONLY men who were coming of career losses, ranked no better than 5th(except Cotto who was 4th due to a vacant title match against unknown Jennings) and refused matches with these same men when they were ranked #1 or 2. Pacquiao had offers to fight these men when they were on top. Manny Pacquiao absolutely refused to fight them at that point.

However once they lost and had their confidence shot, Manny was desperate to fight each and every one of them.

Think I'm wrong?

Look at Manny's record. It tells the story. Manny has been pulling the same shit since fighting DLH. Every opponent he's had since then excluding JMM and Bradley were coming off of career losses. Every one. Six in a row to be exact.

So how do the wins of a man who fights and defeats the #1, 2 and 3 in a division equal the wins of a man who fights and defeats five 5th ranked fighters and one 4th ranked fighter?

How you answer this question will tell a lot about your character and how far your national pride will drive you to LIE and SHAME yourself.

Have some self respect.

GO! Again, can't be so hard if its so easy but all you do is say Baldomir was a champ and ranked high .... WTF!!!

Again, Baldomir's win over Judah had more legacy value than ANYTHING that Pacquiao has done at WW because unlike Pacquiao, Baldomir actually fought a #1 WW when he was still the #1 WW and beat him!

To date, Manny Pacquiao has NEVER even fought a 3rd ranked WW and won!

How pathetic is that?

Its called "MARKETING".

When a man pretends to be a top WW without ever having beaten a fighter who was ranked in the top three at WW, its a sham. A farce. A load of crap. Ball it up and wipe your ass with it.

Manny Pacquiao puts on a show. No one is denying that. But the question here is against who and where were they ranked when he fought them?

So if Pacquiao beat Pernell Whitaker next month, who is a ATG and HOF, would it hold any legacy value for Pacquiao?

Absolutely not.

Why you ask?

Because Whitaker has no rank to justify giving anyone who beats him at this point any value towards a legacy.

To get rank in the top 3 spots, you've got to beat the best in a division. The ONLY way to move up from third is to fight either #1 or #2. Unless Whitaker fought his way up and earned a fight against a top 3 fighter and won, nothing he's done in the past could justify giving anyone who beat him any real legacy credit.

Pacquiao supporters can't comprehend this. Its beyond the scope of their ability to be honest with themselves. If they were to accept this fact, it means that they would also have to accept the fact that this applies to every opponent Pacquiao had faced from DLH to Mosley.

So Pacquiao fans must embrace ignorance at all costs and never, ever consider that Manny Pacquiao just might be full of shit and he's let Arum ruin his career by continuously matching him up against men who could not enhance his legacy.

We haven't even really gotten into how catchweights and vacant titles will play against him when it comes time for historians to weigh his efforts and how much risk he was willing to take.

The man hid out in Southeast Asia for 40 fights for crying out loud. Manny didn't come to fight a recognized world champion until his 41st fight! Floyd stepped up in just his 18th fight.

There is no comparison. You just can't let it go because you thought you had a chance to be in the winner's circle but it was a practical joke that Bob Arum was playing on an entire nation.

Are you laughing yet?

[The Ban Stick]

One more post of people fighting or calling each other names and everyone involved previously is banned for good.


Try me.

[Brother Jay]

One more post of people fighting or calling each other names and everyone involved previously is banned for good.


Try me.

Honestly, I didn't even think i was fighting or name calling.

I'm assuming that you're speaking to me.

I usually like what ADP02 has to say even when we don't agree but he has recently abandoned solid reasoning and factual truth for biased opinions and debating in a disingenuous manner.

I'm actually inclined to believe that someone else is using his account as he has never in the past displayed this style of "I'm right and no facts or anything else matter".

So if me asking him to be honest and reasonable like he has always been in the past is going to get me banned, then ban me. Hell, I just came off a two month ban from this site for some petty nonsense.

Seriously. If what I wrote is in any way a bannable offense, then just ban me. I don't need some self-important wannabe overseer threatening me over a boxing post where I didn't do anything wrong. Where's the name calling? Where's the fighting?

I'm just here to discuss boxing.

If I can't even discuss boxing anymore, what's the point?

In the instance that you weren't referring to me, then uhh .. just forget about it.

[B.U.R.N.E.R]

1st..............


Ey Ban stick how do you see posts count in this thread.

[ADP02]

Honestly, I didn't even think i was fighting or name calling.

I'm assuming that you're speaking to me.

I usually like what ADP02 has to say even when we don't agree............................................. .................................................. .................................................. ..............................

I'm just here to discuss boxing.

If I can't even discuss boxing anymore, what's the point?

In the instance that you weren't referring to me, then uhh .. just forget about it.

I guess we will have to do this some other day as per "Ban's" comments.

We will have to agree to disagree until next time!

[Brother Jay]

I guess we will have to do this some other day as per "Ban's" comments.

We will have to agree to disagree until next time!

LOL ... I guess.

Its amusing to me that you took less offense to my post than that other dude.

Unbelievable at how this site has declined.