Better defensive fighter, Benitez or RJJ?

[raskat]

cant believe anybody would say Roy Jones. Benitez is easily one of the top 4 best defensive fighters in the history of boxing

[raf727]

Dunno' if there are any other Benitez' that belong in the same sentence as RJJ so I'll assume we're talking about Wilfredo?

So:

If that's the case, why did RJJ's tools fail him so badly when his reflexes diminished almost imperceptibly from 1 fight to the next (W over Ruiz followed by a tough but ,imo, deserved W over Tarver followed by a series of being ignominiously KTFO) ? He did not lose knowledge or wisdom from Ruiz to Tarver 1 & 2, so wtf happened?

To answer my own rhetorical question, RJJ's defense was his extravagantly crazy beautiful, God given reflexes. The very instant they were less than 100%, he got smoked time after time.

Have only seen a couple of Benitez fights but to me he looked like not-Roy in terms of raw athletic talent. His 1st loss to an up and coming SRL came by TKO in the 15th round. How many times did RJJ fight 15 rounds? How many times did he fight the p4p equivalent of SRL? Never.

Benitez survived 14.x rounds against a young, crazy bad (top 20 or better p4p ATG) SRL.

Of all the guys RJJ fought before losing his edge who was as badass as SRL? None of the guys who kicked his @ss post prime could so much as carry SRL's jockstrap.

Based on this half-@ssed drunken analysis, I'll go with Benitez...

I'm sure somebody out there sees the salient points and can express this better...

help? lol

He is a fighter, fighters all get old and start losing, he couldn't stay on top forever. If he retired after Ruiz this conversation would be going alot different, he chose to fight on, he got old and started losing, not to mention dropping back in weight.

He knew how to utilize his god given talents, yes, he also trained extremely hard for many, many years to develop the skill necessary to maximize their efforts. Roy put in work, don't just act like he was born an ATG.

[Doctor_Tenma]

Find it weird that Ray Leonard hasn't faced the same unwarranted criticism Roy has, when Leonard showed the same determinations going into his mid 30s. You don't hear people saying Leonard was solely dependent on his athleticism.

[lefthook2daliva]

He is a fighter, fighters all get old and start losing, he couldn't stay on top forever. If he retired after Ruiz this conversation would be going alot different, he chose to fight on, he got old and started losing, not to mention dropping back in weight.

He knew how to utilize his god given talents, yes, he also trained extremely hard for many, many years to develop the skill necessary to maximize their efforts. Roy put in work, don't just act like he was born an ATG.

You didn't answer this question:

If that's the case, why did RJJ's tools fail him so badly when his reflexes diminished almost imperceptibly from 1 fight to the next?

Where were his hard earned skills when he was getting ktfo by Glengoffe?

That wasn't that far removed from when he clowned Ruiz.

RJJ was amazing to watch in his prime and there are few if any I would pick to beat him prior to the Tarver fight. Indeed I thought he'd clown Tarver at the time that fight happened. But he didn't. He lost a fraction of a second and barely got out w/his @ss and then lost another fraction in the rematch and started getting ktfo on a regular basis.

I have no doubt that as a kid, adolescent and young man he worked his @ss off to be as awesome as he could be. But maybe ( and I don't know, I'm just joe shmoe on the interwebz ) he didn't train with a mind to the future...

When you're a young man and **** is just lining up for you to arrange as you see fit, it's not hard to think it's gonna' be like that forever.

[lefthook2daliva]

Find it weird that Ray Leonard hasn't faced the same unwarranted criticism Roy has, when Leonard showed the same determinations going into his mid 30s. You don't hear people saying Leonard was solely dependent on his athleticism.

That's cause' he wasn't.

He decisioned Marvelous well after his physical peak. He won (I actually think Hagler won but it was close enough not to matter for the purposes of this discussion) that fight w/his skills and and most of all strategy.

[Doctor_Tenma]

You didn't answer this question:

If that's the case, why did RJJ's tools fail him so badly when his reflexes diminished almost imperceptibly from 1 fight to the next?

Where were his hard earned skills when he was getting ktfo by Glengoffe?

That wasn't that far removed from when he clowned Ruiz.

RJJ was amazing to watch in his prime and there are few if any I would pick to beat him prior to the Tarver fight. Indeed I thought he'd clown Tarver at the time that fight happened. But he didn't. He lost a fraction of a second and barely got out w/his @ss and then lost another fraction in the rematch and started getting ktfo on a regular basis.

I have no doubt that as a kid, adolescent and young man he worked his @ss off to be as awesome as he could be. But maybe ( and I don't know, I'm just joe shmoe on the interwebz ) he didn't train with a mind to the future...

When you're a young man and **** is just lining up for you to arrange as you see fit, it's not hard to think it's gonna' be like that forever.

I think his confidence took a hit, and stubbornness played a major role as well. Stubbornness because he knew how far off his prime he was in my opinion, but refused to transition into a style that would suit him at an advanced age. Roy wants to be the guy to land quadruple left hooks, run circles around his opponents and showboat.

[Doctor_Tenma]

That's cause' he wasn't.

He decisioned Marvelous well after his physical peak. He won (I actually think Hagler won but it was close enough not to matter for the purposes of this discussion) that fight w/his skills and and most of all strategy.

Leonard was 31 against Hagler.

In the bold, of course, but neither was Roy. Just that Leonard somewhat knew when to retire, where as Roy didn't. That's pretty much the only difference I see here, Leonard much like Roy started getting hit a lot more, watch the Hearns rematch or the battering Norris gave him, granted that came against quality fighters but still the same vulnerabilities. Maybe boxing fans have become more adapt at seeing fighters compete at the elite level well into their mid or even late 30s, that we've forgotten to take wear and tear into the equation or when so-and-so started boxing.

[#1Assassin]

Find it weird that Ray Leonard hasn't faced the same unwarranted criticism Roy has, when Leonard showed the same determinations going into his mid 30s. You don't hear people saying Leonard was solely dependent on his athleticism.

he wasnt though. neither was roy obviously, he had some skills (offensive mainly) that didnt simply depend on physical ability, timing and precision for example. he also had excellent figting intelligence. but his fundamentals were always poor, defensively in particular and he got away with it bcuz of his skills.

leonard had good fundamentals, not great but good. he didnt depend on his physical gifts as much as roy did, i think thats quite obvious. look at the hearns and benitez fights when he fought two fighters just as fast as himself and in hearns' case taller and harder hitting too. leonard went back to textbook boxing stuff.

roy tried to go back to basics at the end of his career but was highly ineffective against lesser opponents.

[MJ223]

Tough one..... Benitez when he was on was something else with his head movement and that jab....... He did have lapses though

Roy was more consistent albeit against inferior opposition.....

Would favor El Radar because of the competition......