Has Manny improved?

[tatangb45]

Just a couple of observations from the responses in this thread:

1) Most of the posters who say that Pac has not improved are Floyd fans. They insist that Pac is still the one-dimensional, low IQ boxer that he was in his earlier career. If that is the case then why are these same people so rabidly supporting Floyd's continued excuses to block this fight from happening?

2) It seems that the people who ridicule Pac's IQ are those who have questionable IQ levels themselves. For proof of this, see observation #1.

[jtiger777]

just a couple of observations from the responses in this thread:

1) most of the posters who say that pac has not improved are floyd fans. They insist that pac is still the one-dimensional, low iq boxer that he was in his earlier career. If that is the case then why are these same people so rabidly supporting floyd's continued excuses to block this fight from happening?

2) it seems that the people who ridicule pac's iq are those who have questionable iq levels themselves. For proof of this, see observation #1.

or maybe its really how they see it?

[Brother Jay]

I don't understand why you continue to harp on the condition of Cotto.

If you think Cotto was drained then let's work off of that assumption...Pacquiao was still having some trouble with him. And he made adjustments. Cotto did not gas in the 2nd and 3rd rounds, come on man, I'm the biggest Cotto fan around and not even I would try and conjure up that argument.

You're speaking in generalities, I'm using specific parts of the fight. I'm not just "talking about how well he did". He took away Cotto's jab by countering it with two different punches. That is impressive, I don't get how you don't see that if you've seen the fight.

When I say you can see him think I obviously don't mean literally, are you 12? I'm saying you can see him try different things, you can see him set traps, you can see the adaptation in the gameplan.

And no, Martinez/Macklin wasn't all about Macklin gassing in the 9th. A lot of it had to do with Martinez adapting. Macklin scored a KD and it gave Martinez a sense of urgency that put Macklin on the defensive, this was crystal clear.

Manny can't make those adjustments against Marquez because Marquez is always one step ahead of him....BECAUSE HE'S MARQUEZ. No one outside of Floyd can match ring intelligence with Marquez. Mosley was running and Pacquiao isn't good at cutting the ring off.......they also didn't train for that at all cause let's be honest, who expected Mosley to run all night?

You are using one argument and not even bothering to look at the actual events of the fight. Your argument is incredibly shallow and it begs the question of whether or not you have watched the fight since 2009. While I use specific examples from the fight to back up my points you simply speak in generalities. Pac made adjustments against Cotto, someone who has always been perceived as more technically sound.........THAT'S the improvement. If you think that the explanation for that is 100% related to Cotto being drained then there's no point in even debating this.

Well I thought I ended our last communication pleasantly. Ok then.

I'll just say this:

In order for anyone to measure improvement as it pertains to boxing ability, the boxer must make changes but also the level of competition must change as well.

When was the last time Pacquiao fought a reigning champion before Marquez 2011?

Answer: 2008 against Marquez.

What type of fighters has Pacquiao faced since Marquez?

DLH@145lbs - drained and weakened

Hatton - inside brawler who came to throw hail mary haymakers and completely threw caution to the wind

Cotto@145lbs - drained and weakened

Clottey - plodding and unwilling to exchange

Margarito - drained and weakened plodder who was under

Mosley - stayed on his bicycle and was unwilling to exchange

Marquez III - reigning champion, elite boxer who made Pacquiao look desperate and confused.



Now ... which one of those names is different than the other six???????????

To measure TRUE improvement and not just what Pacquiao can do against weakened fighters, tailor-made plodders and those unwilling to exchange, we have to see Pacquiao fight someone OUTSIDE of those three molds.

We did.

He got embarrassed by a 38 year old man.

When Floyd beat Mosley, it was all about Mosley's age. Now that Marquez kicked Manny's asss at age 38, what's that all about?

I'm sure if we put Manny in against Tito Trinidad RIGHT NOW and Tito came in at 145lbs, Pacquiao could do all kinds of impressive things that would make him seem like he's improved and gone to some next level.

If you're going to debate with me, you're going to have to bring something better than what he did against Cotto at a mannyweight.

I read ALL of your points and they ALL came up wanting because you completely refuse to acknowledge that ANY boxer can look better than he is if his opponent is weakened by catchweights or unwilling to fight back.

Improvement is measured by being able to achieve your objective against a game and capable opponent.

Call all this "pointless". The fact of the matter is that you're trying to build a case for Pacquiao's improvement against a handicapped opponent, and that in itself is weak.

[hugh grant]

or maybe its really how they see it?

They see what they want to see im afraid. Would that one arm puncher who lost to Morales, have really have brutalized, DLH, hatton, Cotto and Margarito like that.

Of course hes improved. But why does how much Pac has actually improved really matter to some people so much? Why doesnt how much JMM has improved and how much he has studied Pac matter to people?

[HEZEKYHWH]

Let me take a crack at this Brother JAY....

SAVOURDAFLAVOR
If you think Cotto was drained then let's work off of that assumption...Pacquiao was still having some trouble with him. And he made adjustments. Cotto did not gas in the 2nd and 3rd rounds, come on man, I'm the biggest Cotto fan around and not even I would try and conjure up that argument.

What Jay is saying is quite simple. You see when you are drained and at a disadvantage, by default not only do you eventually gas faster, but your reflexes are slower as well..... If this wasnt the case then catchweights would be ineffective dude. But they work and the proof is that manny requests them quite often... Boxing is known as the sweet science, in science you deal with exacts. 2 lbs makes a different. Maybe not to you because you probably sit in a cubicle all day, but to an athlete, it does.

Plus lets not forget the stipulation of not gaining a certain amount of pounds after the weight in..... Cotto weighed in @ 159 against Urkal, how much against PAC???? LOL

You're speaking in generalities, I'm using specific parts of the fight. I'm not just "talking about how well he did". He took away Cotto's jab by countering it with two different punches. That is impressive, I don't get how you don't see that if you've seen the fight.

Dont you think??? Thats why its called weight draining!!!! Draining by default is this ......

drain verb \ˈdrān\

Definition of DRAIN

transitive verb
1
obsolete : filter
2
a : to draw off (liquid) gradually or completely
b : to cause the gradual disappearance of
c : to exhaust physically or emotionally

And no, Martinez/Macklin wasn't all about Macklin gassing in the 9th. A lot of it had to do with Martinez adapting. Macklin scored a KD and it gave Martinez a sense of urgency that put Macklin on the defensive, this was crystal clear.

Okay an athlete with better stamina, will always be able to exert urgency on an athlete with weaker stamina. How many fighters do you see place urgency on Floyd?? None, because they cant outlast him!!!
So what Jay was saying was quite simple. If a fighter is drained, and lacking energy/stamina, YOU DONT HAVE TO FIGURE anything out..... Not if you are healthy and have good stamina. You see if Cotto was free to fight at the weight he wanted the power (body shots) would have nullified PACS stamina. It eats energy. Hence people go to the body. Thats how you take the legs away from the faster fighter.

Manny can't make those adjustments against Marquez because Marquez is always one step ahead of him....BECAUSE HE'S MARQUEZ. No one outside of Floyd can match ring intelligence with Marquez. Mosley was running and Pacquiao isn't good at cutting the ring off.......they also didn't train for that at all cause let's be honest, who expected Mosley to run all night?

Nope, Marquez is simply a better fighter... POINT BLANK AS HE SHOWED IN THE LAST FIGHT..... Listen to what you are saying, if Marquez is always x1 step ahead, why does Marquez have x2 losses against PAC?? Are you saying Marquez is so great that he actually becomes ******ed in the ring and over thinks against PAC? You have just admitted hes been robbed by PAC. But lets continue... Regarding Shane, how in the hell can you and many others HOLLER at the top of your lungs that PAC IS ATG (ALL-TIME GREAT) Yet he doesn't know how to cut off the ring...lol

And then you ask how would an all time great know that a fighter is gonna run all night??? An ATG automatically adjusts!!!! Thats the point!! The point of this topic is questioning PACS IMPROVEMENTS. How can you say hes a thinker, when he cant cut off the goddamn ring? He was faster than Mosley, yet he couldnt cut off the ring!!! ARE YOU SERIOUS!!!!

This is laughable at best!!! I can cut the goddamn ring off and I aint a professional!!! Its not a science bro.... It should come natural for an all time great. In sparring I have never been taught to cut the ring off, its just pure instincts... So surely an ATG should know how to do this!!!

You are using one argument and not even bothering to look at the actual events of the fight. Your argument is incredibly shallow and it begs the question of whether or not you have watched the fight since 2009. While I use specific examples from the fight to back up my points you simply speak in generalities. Pac made adjustments against Cotto, someone who has always been perceived as more technically sound.........THAT'S the improvement. If you think that the explanation for that is 100% related to Cotto being drained then there's no point in even debating this.

Okay Manny whooped Cotto, out thought Cotto as you say, but come 2012, he needs another catchweight. Why does he need another catchweight?? I will tell you why.... Because manny knew something before he fought Cotto....

HE ADMITTED COTTO WAS THE HARDEST PUNCHER HAD EVER FACED...



THIS WHAT MANNY REMEMBERS. HE DIDNT GET TO SING AT HIS POST FIGHT KARAOKE EXTRAVAGANZA!!! LMAO!!! THAT GODDAMN EAR WAS RINGING, AND HE WAS BUSTED UP, AGAINST A DRAINED COTTO.

A CATCHWEIGHT FIGHTER WAS THE HARDEST HITTER HE HAD FACED... Why would he wanna see him at his true strength. You see you keep viewing gassing as not being able to run, but your punches and everything else basically become telegraphed.... Have you ever been to the gym hitting the heavy bag and started to tire?? You start to tire because of lack of energy.... But when a person is drained they simply lack energy! Reminds me of when ALI was taking those pills to cut weight, but was drained in the fight, even though he looked good. Just as people said COTTO looks so ripped!!!

COTTO VS MANNY TALE OF THE TAPE.



BEING SO CLOSE IN SIZE, WHY DID PACQUIAO NEED A CATCHWEIGHT AGAIN... NUMBERS DONT LIE SON.... FOOLS DO THOUGH..

JUST AS PAC WEIGHED IN THE RING MORE THAN DELAHOYA. WHAT REALLY KILLS THESE FIGHTERS IS NOT THE 2 POUNDS ON THE FRONT END, BUT THE WEIGHT REHYDRATION STIPULATIONS...

IN OSCAR CASE IT DID, BUT AS BRO JAY SAYS HOW CAN PEOPLE COMPARE MANNYS VICTORY OVER FLOYDS OF DELAHOYA??

REALISTICALLY THEY CANT.

[junior gong]

Well I thought I ended our last communication pleasantly. Ok then.

I'll just say this:

In order for anyone to measure improvement as it pertains to boxing ability, the boxer must make changes but also the level of competition must change as well.

When was the last time Pacquiao fought a reigning champion before Marquez 2011?

Answer: 2008 against Marquez.

What type of fighters has Pacquiao faced since Marquez?

DLH@145lbs - drained and weakened

Hatton - inside brawler who came to throw hail mary haymakers and completely threw caution to the wind

Cotto@145lbs - drained and weakened

Clottey - plodding and unwilling to exchange

Margarito - drained and weakened plodder who was under

Mosley - stayed on his bicycle and was unwilling to exchange

Marquez III - reigning champion, elite boxer who made Pacquiao look desperate and confused.



Now ... which one of those names is different than the other six???????????

To measure TRUE improvement and not just what Pacquiao can do against weakened fighters, tailor-made plodders and those unwilling to exchange, we have to see Pacquiao fight someone OUTSIDE of those three molds.

We did.

He got embarrassed by a 38 year old man.

When Floyd beat Mosley, it was all about Mosley's age. Now that Marquez kicked Manny's asss at age 38, what's that all about?

I'm sure if we put Manny in against Tito Trinidad RIGHT NOW and Tito came in at 145lbs, Pacquiao could do all kinds of impressive things that would make him seem like he's improved and gone to some next level.

If you're going to debate with me, you're going to have to bring something better than what he did against Cotto at a mannyweight.

I read ALL of your points and they ALL came up wanting because you completely refuse to acknowledge that ANY boxer can look better than he is if his opponent is weakened by catchweights or unwilling to fight back.

Improvement is measured by being able to achieve your objective against a game and capable opponent.

Call all this "pointless". The fact of the matter is that you're trying to build a case for Pacquiao's improvement against a handicapped opponent, and that in itself is weak.

You are talking out of your arse and not for the first time....Oh ****!..sorry, your right, that Manny Pacman is proper rubbish, aint he?

Doesnt this routine ever get boring for you? just the same garbage rehashed over and over and over. The crap you Floydiots come out with is beyond laughable and really only serves to prove that boxing outside of Floyd doesnt exist in your world.

If its not you not knowing the difference between a bronze and a gold medal, its that other nobcake thinking that a decade is eleven years long.

Bumsniffs and imbeciles one and all.

[HEZEKYHWH]

You are talking out of your arse and not for the first time....Oh ****!..sorry, your right, that Manny Pacman is proper rubbish, aint he?

Doesnt this routine ever get boring for you? just the same garbage rehashed over and over and over. The crap you Floydiots come out with is beyond laughable and really only serves to prove that boxing outside of Floyd doesnt exist in your world.

If its not you not knowing the difference between a bronze and a gold medal, its that other nobcake thinking that a decade is eleven years long.

Bumsniffs and imbeciles one and all.

LMAO @ YOU......

YOU HAVENT EVEN CONTRIBUTED TO THE POST ON WHY PAC HAS IMPROVED. Nothing relevant anyway......

Its all good though....




I have watched you receive many beatdowns and your leg has been swept many times.....

[junior gong]

LMAO @ YOU......

YOU HAVENT EVEN CONTRIBUTED TO THE POST ON WHY PAC HAS IMPROVED. Nothing relevant anyway......

Its all good though....




I have watched you receive many beatdowns and your leg has been swept many times.....

If you read back what you posted, you would realise that neither have you..and if you actually read what my post says, you would also realise why it is pointless trying to discuss anything with someone who's head is buried firmly between Floyds butt cleft.

[Doctor_Tenma]

Cotto wasn't weight drained, that's been way blown out of proportion, of course the 2 pounds didn't help but that didn't bother him nearly as much as having an inexperienced trainer and going in with a bad strategy. Also, Brother Jay...you said

"Clottey - unwilling to exchange"

You honestly believe if Pacquiao fought in his older style, where he would mostly look to land his straight left hand, Clottey wouldn't have timed him? It was Pacquiao's more tuned offensive arsenal that kept Clottey in his shell, his ability to mix up his attack alot better and also Pacquiao's body punching too.

As for Hatton, the right hook wasn't anything new but it was more tuned and Hatton admitted to not being able to recover from that punch after it dropped him.

[Brother Jay]

They see what they want to see im afraid. Would that one arm puncher who lost to Morales, have really have brutalized, DLH, hatton, Cotto and Margarito like that.

Of course hes improved. But why does how much Pac has actually improved really matter to some people so much? Why doesnt how much JMM has improved and how much he has studied Pac matter to people?

I'm glad you brought that up.

Pacquiao didn't lose to Morales because he was a one arm puncher.

Pacquiao lost to Morales because the lab conducting the blood tests screwed up and lost Pacquiao's sample. They required Pacquiao to resubmit a clean sample WITHOUT notice.

Its no coincidence that Pacquiao looked like shit in that fight. It fcuked up his entire timetable.

In the rematch, Pacquiao did ABSOLUTELY NOTHING DIFFERENT. No new approach. No new technique. No new anything. Yet he blew Morales out of the water.

These are the kinds of improvements that people like you refer to. Manny does nothing really better, but he inexplicably enjoys greater success.

Its bullshit.

Manny is the same jab, jab straight left fighter that he's always been. He uses that same combination over and over and over. Watch ANY Manny Pacquiao fight and count how many times he uses that same combination in a single round. He relies on it as its his bread and butter.

If he truly had improved, he would be able to do something different by now.

He can't. So he doesn't.

Jab, jab, straight left hand. <------- it hasn't been working so well for him in his last 2 fights.