Has Manny improved?

[Brother Jay]

So is Al Haymon & Team Mayweather

I think its naive to think Pacquiao hasn't improved.

Okay. Why?

People's idea of improving seems to always be a radical change of style, which isn't the case really for any fighter. Like someone mentioned prior, Pacquiao's more patient, cerebral and chooses his shots better than in the Barrera, Morales fights where he was just a whirlwind.

In what fight did Pacquiao demonstrate this new found patience? Was it against Clottey and Mosley? I would say so because he couldn't get to them for him to be a whirlwind. In most cases Pacquiao STILL continues to jab, jab straight right hand over and over and over and over and over and over.

I actually think the Marquez fights made him a better fighter.

In what way? He fought an older Marquez at a weight that was more to his own advantage and looked worse in this fight than any of the other three! Where was the cerebral improvement?

Has he maybe lost a step?

Or maybe he just was never as good as some make him out to be. Why make excuses for him? Why not just let him stand on his merits? We all WAITED for the moment for Manny to run out of guys who were FORMER champions and start fighting reigning champions. The day came and he did and we saw that he could not step up to the plate! That's not losing a step. That's finally stepping up to championship competition after 3 years and not being able to perform like you had hoped.

It's possible, but I think once people look at the scope of the competition he can realistically face, besides Mayweather, who has an overwhelming edge over Pacquiao?

When you write things like that, its misleading. Its like saying that Mayweather beat DLH, but Pacquiao beat DLH better. That's misleading because real fans know that DLH weighed 170lbs against Mayweather and weighed 145lbs against Pacquiao.

Why can't Pacquiao face Victor Ortiz at the SAME EXACT WEIGHT that Mayweather did? He won't because he knows that he would lose if he fought Victor at 168lbs. Its not the same if you stipulate that Ortiz MUST weigh a weight that Pacquiao is comfortable with and then call that kind of win THE SAME THING AS WHAT MAYWEATHER DID.

He's still a great fighter in my eyes. He has fits w/ Marquez, sure, as did Leonard with Hearns. It doesn't make them any less of a fighter.

Oh Manny can definitely ****, but don't make his shortcomings about JMM. We would see A LOT more of Manny's shortcomings if Manny would fight guys who ARE on top and at THEIR OWN best weight.

JMM showed three times that Pacquiao can be outboxed. Sad part is that with Arum behind him, you have to either blow out Pacquiao or knock out Pacquiao.

That's not an indication of how good Pacquiao is. That's an indication of how good Arum is.

Good post. I respect your right to your opinion.

[RL_GMA]

Okay. Why?



In what fight did Pacquiao demonstrate this new found patience? Was it against Clottey and Mosley? I would say so because he couldn't get to them for him to be a whirlwind. In most cases Pacquiao STILL continues to jab, jab straight right hand over and over and over and over and over and over.



In what way? He fought an older Marquez at a weight that was more to his own advantage and looked worse in this fight than any of the other three! Where was the cerebral improvement?



Or maybe he just was never as good as some make him out to be. Why make excuses for him? Why not just let him stand on his merits? We all WAITED for the moment for Manny to run out of guys who were FORMER champions and start fighting reigning champions. The day came and he did and we saw that he could not step up to the plate! That's not losing a step. That's finally stepping up to championship competition after 3 years and not being able to perform like you had hoped.



When you write things like that, its misleading. Its like saying that Mayweather beat DLH, but Pacquiao beat DLH better. That's misleading because real fans know that DLH weighed 170lbs against Mayweather and weighed 145lbs against Pacquiao.

Why can't Pacquiao face Victor Ortiz at the SAME EXACT WEIGHT that Mayweather did? He won't because he knows that he would lose if he fought Victor at 168lbs. Its not the same if you stipulate that Ortiz MUST weigh a weight that Pacquiao is comfortable with and then call that kind of win THE SAME THING AS WHAT MAYWEATHER DID.



Oh Manny can definitely ****, but don't make his shortcomings about JMM. We would see A LOT more of Manny's shortcomings if Manny would fight guys who ARE on top and at THEIR OWN best weight.

JMM showed three times that Pacquiao can be outboxed. Sad part is that with Arum behind him, you have to either blow out Pacquiao or knock out Pacquiao.

That's not an indication of how good Pacquiao is. That's an indication of how good Arum is.

Good post. I respect your right to your opinion.

Jesus ****ing Christ LOL

You're missing color fonts. It can't be taken seriously otherwise.

[HEZEKYHWH]

Frazier and Norton caused Ali a lot of trouble .... what are you going to say about Ali? Is Ali worthy?

to boot ... Foreman didn't just beat Frazier and Norton,..... he annihilated them.

so Foreman was supposed to do the same heavy damage with Ali, right?

ALL OF THE FIGHTERS YOU MENTIONED ARE BETTER THAN PACQUIAO....

PACQUIAO HAS NO BOXING SKILLS AND RELIES HEAVILY ON HIS ATHLETICISM....

Hes a weaker Roy Jones IMO.....

Simply put PAC cannot box, and he will be fighting many years from now, just watch. Because he doesnt have as much money as you guys think.....

[Brother Jay]

There is no point made here, it's just general statements dressed up by big words.

Big words? Wow. Okay.

The 2 weight thing with Cotto is irrelevant...Pacquiao was struggling with that version of Cotto in the beginning. Whether Cotto was ****** down or not means nothing for this particular conversation.

So what your saying is that its okay to drain an opponent as long as you struggle with them in the beginning?

Those 2lbs mean EVERYTHING in this conversation. If Cotto is slower and weaker because he was stipulated to make a catchweight, then of course Manny will look better because he has less resistance to perform against.

Pac was having some trouble with Cotto in the beginning....Cotto was beating him to the punch with his jab, he was countering when Pacquiao would come in, and Pac was short on all of his jabs.

I didn't claim that Cotto was a bum. I said that he was weakened for a purpose. If there was no purpose, then the mannyweight wouldn't have been stipulated. Does that make sense to you?

In the 2nd and 3rd rounds he started leading with his left hand as opposed to his jab. And if you actually watch the fight, he starts by doing it without much convction. This is an example of him feeling the lead left out, seeing where it could land and what Cotto would do to coutner it. His handspeed advantage helped him land that lead left before Cotto would land his jab and it was a way to null the effectiveness of Cotto's jab. Over the middle rounds he also figured out that he could counter over Cotto's jab with his right hook. These were openings that he saw as the fight progressed....he never saw openings like that before.

None of what you wrote above challenges the fact that Cotto was weakened, and therefore his reflexes weren't what they should have been, and his stamina wasn't what it should have been. That was the point.

He also experimenting with his punches.....he was going with his straight left for a while, then saw that the uppercut was working and starting throwing short uppercuts when Cotto would crowd him.

How hard is it to experiment against a guy who came in with lots of heart but limited stamina? To this day Cotto says that he will not sacrifice his body for Pacquiao again. And that's EXACTLY why Pacquiao is fighting Bradley instead of the #1 jrMW champion. Its not in Pacquiao's best interest to face Cotto at a weight that Miguel was comfortable at. All you're doing is writing about how successful Manny was while Miguel was at a disadvantage.

If you watch the fight you can see Pacquiao feeling all of this out and thinking about it before he did it. He figured out how to take Cotto's best weapon away(his jab) by counter punching.

Again, all you're doing is describing how well Manny did against a man that he stipulated be weaker for their match.

Did you see Martinez' match against Macklin the other weekend? Did you notice that Macklin was in the fight up until about the 10th? Well the reason that Martinez started doing so well in those late rounds had NOTHING to do with Martinez "adjusting" to Macklin's style. It had ALL TO DO with Macklin gassing in the 9th. After that point, Martinez could do whatever he wanted to do because Macklin had little else to give in terms of effort.

Did that mean that Martinez was more cerebral in that match? Did Martinez make adjustments or did Macklin reach a point where he became completely vulnerable .. not looking anything like he did for the first 8 rounds?

Same thing with Pacquiao/Cotto. You said it yourself. Cotto was doing well in the early rounds. Then, all of a sudden, Pacquiao .. never having been known for adjusting before .. made adjustments against a man who is technically a better boxer than himself? That's a real stretch.

This is something he couldn't do before. His counter punching is not simply a product of his speed...he counter punches accurately and with precision. He sets things up now, you could see him think it through in the ring.

Hahaha .. how do you see ANYONE think ANYTHING through in the ring? Hahaha .. my god man ..

If Manny is able to make the adjustments that you say, then why wasn't he able to make them against JMM? Or even against Mosley? The way Mosley fought, all one would have to do is cut off the ring .. which is a rudimentary boxing skill.

Where were the adjustments?

I don't see how slowing down is an improvement if being a whirlwind has always worked for Manny. Its simply doing something different. I explained the differences between a change and an improvement above this post.

I very much appreciate you taking the time to explain your position. Most would have just cursed and insulted.

I don't agree that fighting intentionally weakened fighters is a sign of improvement. You obviously feel differently.

We will agree to disagree here.

Thanks for the debate, brother.

[Brother Jay]

Jesus ****ing Christ LOL

You're missing color fonts. It can't be taken seriously otherwise.

I understand.

I wasn't supposed to challenge your opinion and I was supposed to just accept your word as gospel.

Sorry that didn't work out for you.

Enjoy the cyber-coloring book.

[jtiger777]

so is al haymon & team mayweather

i think its naive to think pacquiao hasn't improved. People's idea of improving seems to always be a radical change of style, which isn't the case really for any fighter. Like someone mentioned prior, pacquiao's more patient, cerebral and chooses his shots better than in the barrera, morales fights where he was just a whirlwind. I actually think the marquez fights made him a better fighter. Has he maybe lost a step? It's possible, but i think once people look at the scope of the competition he can realistically face, besides mayweather, who has an overwhelming edge over pacquiao? He's still a great fighter in my eyes. He has fits w/ marquez, sure, as did leonard with hearns. It doesn't make them any less of a fighter.

why do u have to justify everything by saying mayweather n dem do it too?????

To respond to the thread, pac has improved in being able to punch with both hands but his boxing iq has not improved much... Yes he is a great fighter

[savorduhflavor]

Big words? Wow. Okay.



So what your saying is that its okay to drain an opponent as long as you struggle with them in the beginning?

Those 2lbs mean EVERYTHING in this conversation. If Cotto is slower and weaker because he was stipulated to make a catchweight, then of course Manny will look better because he has less resistance to perform against.



I didn't claim that Cotto was a bum. I said that he was weakened for a purpose. If there was no purpose, then the mannyweight wouldn't have been stipulated. Does that make sense to you?



None of what you wrote above challenges the fact that Cotto was weakened, and therefore his reflexes weren't what they should have been, and his stamina wasn't what it should have been. That was the point.



How hard is it to experiment against a guy who came in with lots of heart but limited stamina? To this day Cotto says that he will not sacrifice his body for Pacquiao again. And that's EXACTLY why Pacquiao is fighting Bradley instead of the #1 jrMW champion. Its not in Pacquiao's best interest to face Cotto at a weight that Miguel was comfortable at. All you're doing is writing about how successful Manny was while Miguel was at a disadvantage.



Again, all you're doing is describing how well Manny did against a man that he stipulated be weaker for their match.

Did you see Martinez' match against Macklin the other weekend? Did you notice that Macklin was in the fight up until about the 10th? Well the reason that Martinez started doing so well in those late rounds had NOTHING to do with Martinez "adjusting" to Macklin's style. It had ALL TO DO with Macklin gassing in the 9th. After that point, Martinez could do whatever he wanted to do because Macklin had little else to give in terms of effort.

Did that mean that Martinez was more cerebral in that match? Did Martinez make adjustments or did Macklin reach a point where he became completely vulnerable .. not looking anything like he did for the first 8 rounds?

Same thing with Pacquiao/Cotto. You said it yourself. Cotto was doing well in the early rounds. Then, all of a sudden, Pacquiao .. never having been known for adjusting before .. made adjustments against a man who is technically a better boxer than himself? That's a real stretch.



Hahaha .. how do you see ANYONE think ANYTHING through in the ring? Hahaha .. my god man ..

If Manny is able to make the adjustments that you say, then why wasn't he able to make them against JMM? Or even against Mosley? The way Mosley fought, all one would have to do is cut off the ring .. which is a rudimentary boxing skill.

Where were the adjustments?

I don't see how slowing down is an improvement if being a whirlwind has always worked for Manny. Its simply doing something different. I explained the differences between a change and an improvement above this post.

I very much appreciate you taking the time to explain your position. Most would have just cursed and insulted.

I don't agree that fighting intentionally weakened fighters is a sign of improvement. You obviously feel differently.

We will agree to disagree here.

Thanks for the debate, brother.

I don't understand why you continue to harp on the condition of Cotto.

If you think Cotto was drained then let's work off of that assumption...Pacquiao was still having some trouble with him. And he made adjustments. Cotto did not gas in the 2nd and 3rd rounds, come on man, I'm the biggest Cotto fan around and not even I would try and conjure up that argument.

You're speaking in generalities, I'm using specific parts of the fight. I'm not just "talking about how well he did". He took away Cotto's jab by countering it with two different punches. That is impressive, I don't get how you don't see that if you've seen the fight.

When I say you can see him think I obviously don't mean literally, are you 12? I'm saying you can see him try different things, you can see him set traps, you can see the adaptation in the gameplan.

And no, Martinez/Macklin wasn't all about Macklin gassing in the 9th. A lot of it had to do with Martinez adapting. Macklin scored a KD and it gave Martinez a sense of urgency that put Macklin on the defensive, this was crystal clear.

Manny can't make those adjustments against Marquez because Marquez is always one step ahead of him....BECAUSE HE'S MARQUEZ. No one outside of Floyd can match ring intelligence with Marquez. Mosley was running and Pacquiao isn't good at cutting the ring off.......they also didn't train for that at all cause let's be honest, who expected Mosley to run all night?

You are using one argument and not even bothering to look at the actual events of the fight. Your argument is incredibly shallow and it begs the question of whether or not you have watched the fight since 2009. While I use specific examples from the fight to back up my points you simply speak in generalities. Pac made adjustments against Cotto, someone who has always been perceived as more technically sound.........THAT'S the improvement. If you think that the explanation for that is 100% related to Cotto being drained then there's no point in even debating this.

[junior gong]

Big words? Wow. Okay.



So what your saying is that its okay to drain an opponent as long as you struggle with them in the beginning?

Those 2lbs mean EVERYTHING in this conversation. If Cotto is slower and weaker because he was stipulated to make a catchweight, then of course Manny will look better because he has less resistance to perform against.



I didn't claim that Cotto was a bum. I said that he was weakened for a purpose. If there was no purpose, then the mannyweight wouldn't have been stipulated. Does that make sense to you?



None of what you wrote above challenges the fact that Cotto was weakened, and therefore his reflexes weren't what they should have been, and his stamina wasn't what it should have been. That was the point.



How hard is it to experiment against a guy who came in with lots of heart but limited stamina? To this day Cotto says that he will not sacrifice his body for Pacquiao again. And that's EXACTLY why Pacquiao is fighting Bradley instead of the #1 jrMW champion. Its not in Pacquiao's best interest to face Cotto at a weight that Miguel was comfortable at. All you're doing is writing about how successful Manny was while Miguel was at a disadvantage.



Again, all you're doing is describing how well Manny did against a man that he stipulated be weaker for their match.

Did you see Martinez' match against Macklin the other weekend? Did you notice that Macklin was in the fight up until about the 10th? Well the reason that Martinez started doing so well in those late rounds had NOTHING to do with Martinez "adjusting" to Macklin's style. It had ALL TO DO with Macklin gassing in the 9th. After that point, Martinez could do whatever he wanted to do because Macklin had little else to give in terms of effort.

Did that mean that Martinez was more cerebral in that match? Did Martinez make adjustments or did Macklin reach a point where he became completely vulnerable .. not looking anything like he did for the first 8 rounds?

Same thing with Pacquiao/Cotto. You said it yourself. Cotto was doing well in the early rounds. Then, all of a sudden, Pacquiao .. never having been known for adjusting before .. made adjustments against a man who is technically a better boxer than himself? That's a real stretch.



Hahaha .. how do you see ANYONE think ANYTHING through in the ring? Hahaha .. my god man ..

If Manny is able to make the adjustments that you say, then why wasn't he able to make them against JMM? Or even against Mosley? The way Mosley fought, all one would have to do is cut off the ring .. which is a rudimentary boxing skill.

Where were the adjustments?

I don't see how slowing down is an improvement if being a whirlwind has always worked for Manny. Its simply doing something different. I explained the differences between a change and an improvement above this post.

I very much appreciate you taking the time to explain your position. Most would have just cursed and insulted.

I don't agree that fighting intentionally weakened fighters is a sign of improvement. You obviously feel differently.

We will agree to disagree here.

Thanks for the debate, brother.

Endless drivel.

[KnockUTheFukOut]

NOPE! And JMM proves he haven't!

Arum just been feeding him the right fighters...FLAT FOOTED, SLOW, NO LATERAL MOVEMENT, NO HEAD MOVEMENT FIGHTERS!

Bradley will be the fastest fighter he has fought in a LONG TIME!

[Brother Jay]

NOPE! And JMM proves he haven't!

Arum just been feeding him the right fighters...FLAT FOOTED, SLOW, NO LATERAL MOVEMENT, NO HEAD MOVEMENT FIGHTERS!

Bradley will be the fastest fighter he has fought in a LONG TIME!

But these guys don't want to hear that.

When you pick guys who move forward and have no movement, and then for good measure you throw a mannyweight into the mix, your fighter BETTER look like he's great!