If you were Ortiz's trainer what would the gamplan you set be?

[Cuauhtémoc1520]

essentially.


But you are missing the finer points, as is your usual custom.



I've seen Floyd's whole catalogue of fights, and the greatest weakness I have seen in Floyd is against single hard shots from unexpected angles making him too eager to protect the head, not constant relentless pressure.


And his back up move to the ropes protecting the head leaves him vulnerable to the body. Both Judah and Ndou suffered this mindless headhunting when he was on the ropes and his ribs were so open.. Chavez applied pressure better than anyone probably has against Floyd, barring Castillo, and he was reduced to a mindless lunging zombie in the end as I have said.


But twist my words as u like

It was sarcasm because you paid no attention to the excellent post made by cuban.

You are doing the same thing he said people do, you are re-inventing Ortiz. You want him to give Floyd angles and pot shot him from the outside, hurting him and then finish him off.

OK, the only problem with that is, Ortiz doesn't give great angles. He is a good boxer but he comes forward with that little bounce step he has where he sets you up with the left.

You say pressure isn't the answer, then what is? Because "angles" isn't a game plan...

Again, you guys want to over complicate what is painfully obvious here. Floyd is a complete fighter, Ortiz is a good young boxer/puncher but he's not going to all of a sudden be able to show Mayweather something he hasn't already seen or develop some skill in 8 weeks of training camp.

If Victor tried to get slick, he's getting picked apart. If he wants to box, the same **** is going to happen.

Vic needs to come forward, muscle him, show him his power, strength and size. Those are ADVANTAGES he has, probably the only one's. When you have ADVANTAGES, why wouldn't you want him to use them?

Let's not over complicate this.

[CubanGuyNYC]

Pressure isn't the answer, imo. Floyd has shown the ability to endure pressure, adapt to it, and brawl with the brawlers until the brawlers are mindless zombies plodding forward into shots, and box the boxers till the boxers don't know what to do. The only thing I've seen is the one pin point shot that stumbles Floyd... that is your window. And then when Floyd does the backing up to the ropes and bending back to protect his head peek a boo style.... Slam him as hard as you can on the ribs before going up top.

Floyd has to be knocked out. Or at least down. If you let him survive you will lose when he adapts. Thats why constant pressure is wrong because it gets too predictable.. You have to surprise a fighter like Floyd and then capitalize on that one quick second that his defenses are weakened..

Ortiz will only have like 1 or 2 windows. He needs to practice quick execution and his most damaging techniques while still trying to remain relaxed and loose..

Pressure may not be the answer...but it's the answer for Victor Ortiz. It's his best chance, IMO. It's not enough to have a blueprint to beat Mayweather. One has to be able to carry it out. That's a tall order. I like some of what you say; I just don't think it'll work for Victor.

You are doing the same thing he said people do, you are re-inventing Ortiz. You want him to give Floyd angles and pot shot him from the outside, hurting him and then finish him off.

OK, the only problem with that is, Ortiz doesn't give great angles. He is a good boxer but he comes forward with that little bounce step he has where he sets you up with the left.

You say pressure isn't the answer, then what is? Because "angles" isn't a game plan...

Again, you guys want to over complicate what is painfully obvious here. Floyd is a complete fighter, Ortiz is a good young boxer/puncher but he's not going to all of a sudden be able to show Mayweather something he hasn't already seen or develop some skill in 8 weeks of training camp.

If Victor tried to get slick, he's getting picked apart. If he wants to box, the same **** is going to happen.

Vic needs to come forward, muscle him, show him his power, strength and size. Those are ADVANTAGES he has, probably the only one's. When you have ADVANTAGES, why wouldn't you want him to use them?

Let's not over complicate this.

Couldn't agree more. Ortiz will get picked apart trying to institute a game-plan outside his strengths. From a boxing perspective, practically anything Victor can do Floyd can do better. I don't think you have to be Ray Arcel to know that Ortiz has to make this a fight. If it becomes anything resembling a boxing match, it'll end in a lopsided UD.

[Chopper417]

Couldn't agree more. Ortiz will get picked apart trying to institute a game-plan outside his strengths. From a boxing perspective, practically anything Victor can do Floyd can do better. I don't think you have to be Ray Arcel to know that Ortiz has to make this a fight. If it becomes anything resembling a boxing match, it'll end in a lopsided UD.[/QUOTE]

Excellent post, I completely agree.

[Chadmazing]

[QUOTE=CubanGuyNYC;10978387]This all sounds great. You obviously know a little something about actual boxing. Trouble is, this isn't a video game. These are two human beings, one much more talented than the other. Your plans assume that the less-talented fighter execute versus the better boxer, as if Mayweather couldn't adjust to these suggestions. If these were two athletes of similar ability, I would be more inclined to agree with your suggestions. Like Mike Tyson once said, "Everyone has a plan 'til they get punched in the mouth."

Well the topic is asking what I'd want from Ortiz as his trainer so that's the gameplan with a fairly athletic southpaw with KO power. If we're talking Victor Ortiz as is then literally run forward swinging like Giovanni Segura. That's his only real hope with the trainer he has.

Also, the idea would be that my guy can win by one punch KO so the gameplan is to land punches of significance and somewhat forget winning rounds to take a long haul decision.

A few more things I'd thought of earlier are...

- I am unsure if this is any good as southpaw but you can't go wrong to try doing what Mosley did to hurt Mayweather. He went left, right to body, left, overhand haymaker looped behind the ear thrown from the waist like a second body shot all while moving around his shoulder towards a more squared angle (to Floyd's right) while his feet were tied down to defend.

So to recap that with Ortiz here is what I'd also work on. Again, getting that large southpaw lead foot outside angle working sets it up (and for the record, if anything picks Ortiz apart and disrupts him it's eating short straight rights so that's a big factor for staying left when angling). Begin the fight with a pulled straight lead left, bang the body with a right hook twice as you move around the shoulder. When you see him blocking the ribs before you even get the hook off you know he's reacting and you change the script. Lead left, no real power but setting Floyd's feet followed by a right hook to the body followed by a haymaker upstairs. That's the southpaw version of what Mosley did as I see it.

And

- from the Hatton fight, Ricky would feint a looping right hand after a small move to the right then lunge in with a looping sort of left hook/uppercut and land a few because Floyd would lean into it to avoid taking a giant rabbit punch. This is a converted move that's BETTER for the southpaw. Small move right, feint a big right hook, at around 3/4 shoulder turn for the punch bring the other shoulder across with the awkwardly angled left hand that's sorta like a sidearm uppercut/cross hybrid. The wide angle reaches Mayweather who, against Hatton, would lean WAY over to his side.

[Syf]

It was sarcasm because you paid no attention to the excellent post made by cuban.

You are doing the same thing he said people do, you are re-inventing Ortiz. You want him to give Floyd angles and pot shot him from the outside, hurting him and then finish him off.

OK, the only problem with that is, Ortiz doesn't give great angles. He is a good boxer but he comes forward with that little bounce step he has where he sets you up with the left.

You say pressure isn't the answer, then what is? Because "angles" isn't a game plan...

Again, you guys want to over complicate what is painfully obvious here. Floyd is a complete fighter, Ortiz is a good young boxer/puncher but he's not going to all of a sudden be able to show Mayweather something he hasn't already seen or develop some skill in 8 weeks of training camp.

If Victor tried to get slick, he's getting picked apart. If he wants to box, the same **** is going to happen.

Vic needs to come forward, muscle him, show him his power, strength and size. Those are ADVANTAGES he has, probably the only one's. When you have ADVANTAGES, why wouldn't you want him to use them?

Let's not over complicate this.

Complicate? hardly, this is simple logic from seeing the fights. Don't give MW a pattern.

Ortiz has some good angles going for him, born of his dynamic strength. And Youth on his side. If an old shopworn Mosley can catch MW, then Ortiz certainly can. The chief danger for Ortiz, in my view, is to become too predictable in the fight. Having a blueprint of constant pressure in the fight is going to set Ortiz to one constant level of speed and aggression. He'll settle into a routine. And Mayweather is a monster with adapting to that. And he'll surely bring the fight to his tempo and comfort level, MW. If, its something MW can adapt to, such as constant fight-long pressure, or trying to "outbox" him, then that is the losing equation in my view.

Ortiz to me has only a few windows. MW's veteran experience and slick defensive aggression will slam shut any other oppurtunities. And if Ortiz opens up too much with mindless pressure, it will be a wonderland of countering opportunities. Just having a plan of pressure might just send Ortiz to the canvas. His defense is dismal.

Pressure may not be the answer...but it's the answer for Victor Ortiz. It's his best chance, IMO. It's not enough to have a blueprint to beat Mayweather. One has to be able to carry it out. That's a tall order. I like some of what you say; I just don't think it'll work for Victor.

true he has strengths. And Ortiz can play his strengths, which MW has an answer for if it becomes too predictable... or, he can try to win. In which case he has to surprise MW, and finish him. Letting the fight go the distance, no matter how grueling and full of pressure, is entirely fighting MW's fight. He should go in this aiming to do exactly what I have said if he wants to beat MW, otherwise its useless.

[Ray*]

Exercise patience, dont jump in or lunge in without thinking..

[tennis-legend]

what did castillo do

copy that

floyd is not the fighter he was in the castillo fight- you copy castillo you KO floyd

[bojangles1987]

Do the best he can to muscle Floyd up against the ropes and hit him with big shots. I wouldn't even focus on winning rounds because Ortiz does not have the skillset to win 7 rounds against Mayweather. Rough him up, hit him big, aim for a stoppage.

[Queen_Leia]

What gameplan would you put in place to beat floyd mayweather?

Lets see what everyone thinks

If I was Ortiz trainer, you would have to be honest with yourself and look at the weakness of your figher as well as Floyd past opponents....

Hatton - no jab, wasn't throwing enough punches (but you can also argue Floyd was neutralizing his style)
Baldomir - punches too slow and wide, no jab, no head movement
Chavez - too much blocked ineffective punching to the body, no jab, no head movement
Augustus - too wild, no technique (I heard that Floyd said he was his toughest opponent)
De La Hoya - needed to be more accurate, stopped throwing the jab, no head movement

I'm not trying to be a *****, I don't think Castillo was so tough because of Floyd being inexperienced, he looked very experienced in his fights before this... but Floyd honestly didn't look the same in that match. He complained a couple of times to his corner about his arm hurting, he wasn't throwing enough punches, wasn't moving his head much... He just looked uncomfortable and looked like he was trying to survive, and then was told to stand in there and fight in the last rounds. Floyd easily dominated in the second fight IMO, I wouldn't say he just improved that much in the 8 month time frame from their rematch.

People think Pacquiao will beat Floyd because of the theory of pressure, but do people pay attention to how Pacquiao fights? He's not even a inside pressure fighter, he's more of a mid-range brawler. Plus, most of those these pressure fighters being named also liked to ignore punishment, and were walking through Floyd's punches. Pacquiao doesn't like to get hit and take punishment, he usually backs up and sometimes often goes to a defensive mode.

My observation and somewhat theory on how to successfully beat Floyd,
Floyd likes to box - Floyd is most comfortable in the center of the ring. Most of his opponents were either not too good at boxing, or were not fast enough. I think someone would need a consistent, accurate, and fast jab. I would say a decent reach, but if you look at when Floyd fought someone like Tony Pep, Pep had a long reach, but it wasn't fast enough, and Floyd eventually neutralized it.

Floyd is fast - If you're not faster or just as fast, than be powerful.
Floyd is accurate - Head movement; most people who fought Floyd don't consistently move their head, or move it at all.
Floyd has good reflexes and head movement - That's why you need to be accurate as possible, and deceptive.
Floyd is deceptive and a counter puncher - Floyd usually likes to lead with a jab to the body, a jab to the head, a left hook, or a straight right. He often likes to use a stiff stance, which one he'd throw is sometimes tricky, but you should be expecting either... the counter-right should be easy to see coming, his stance when he's about to throw it so obvious. I guess someone would need a hawk's eye to consistently see and counter what he'd throw (something Judah was able to do in the earlier rounds). Always keep your guard up, and not just at the head or you'd get jabbed to the body.
Floyd can fight backwards - Most of his opponents weren't very good at fighting backwards. Floyd can, and when you're trying to pressure the fight, be weary of being countered.
Floyd has good footwork - Floyd's positioning and movement is arguably the best I've seen... Not really an answer to this other than being fast on your feet and also trying your best to cut him off.
Floyd is defensive - Most people don't seem to have an answer to his defense, the common theory is pressure, as everyone has seen so far, everyone has failed :/ I think the reason why that is, is because of a lack of other attributes, such as a good jab, accuracy, head-movement, speed, countering, deceptiveness, stamina... They have a good chin, but that's not enough to beat Floyd, as he's still going to counter and hit you and gain points. I also noticed that when people get him in his defensive stance, they almost never throw an over hand right to the head, something Castillo did do and caught him solidly a few times.


Floyd is versatile - He can box, he can brawl, he can fight on the inside, fight forward, fight backwards, can counter-punch...etc... He's just multi-dimensional. You need to be more than one or two-dimensional, as for when your plan A or plan B is neutralized, what else are you going to do?

Floyd is smart - Floyd is too good at predicting his opponent, adjusting, and neutralizing. You can be as smart as Floyd, but it won't matter if you can't perform how you think. Or can't think how you perform.


Floyd has stamina - He can do this for 12 rounds. If you can't, train harder, build that stamina, or try to get something in the earlier rounds; Many have tried but have failed.

To put it simple in my opinion, not saying Floyd is unbeatable, but you almost need the full package. Some people have done well but they lack many or specifically other qualities which is why they fall apart and/or get dominated.

Is Ortiz close to or near the full package to do this....brute strength, power and a bulldozer mentality alone wont beat Floyd...you must bring a ring IQ as well.