The greatest defensive artists of all time

[Brother Jay]

A defensive wizard, is someone who occasionally stays in range long enough to be hit, but is still good defensively imo, that's why I rate Whitaker so highly. Whitaker would stay in the pocket consistently, even against big punchers, now Whitaker occasionally got put down, sometimes to do with balance, sometimes cause he wasn't scared to press his advantage when in control (Roger Mayweather)

Mayweather is a good defensive fighter, but he's not as skilled as Whitaker was defensively, as Whitaker took chances whilst being defensive, he gave the opponents the opportunity to fire back by staying in range more, Mayweather can fight in the pocket, but he doesn't tend to fight there consistently, he likes to use his legs more, and that is what separates Whitaker and Mayweather imo. Mayweather is like Wlad, his cautiousness is part of why he's so good defensively, that and the fact he uses more movement to offset the opponent, is why I consider Whitaker the better defensive fighter.

And that's why Mayweather will have longevity and Sweet Pea didn't. Well, that and drugs. But still .. I don't think that Sweet Pea had as many options. Sweet Pea's primary mode of defense was bobbing, weaving and ducking. Its takes a toll after a while. Floyd has many modes of defense. He has the shoulder roll ala Toney. He can bob and weave ala Sweet Pea, and also has cobra like reflexes ala Roy Jones jr. Being able to switch it up means that Mayweather is harder to figure out, and doesn't rely on any one attribute to stay effective.

Variety and options ... IMO, those are the real differences.

No, a boxing match did not have a limit, some fights lasted over 200 rounds.

I am not lying man, honestly..... the thing is, the rules of engagement were different, and a round had no time limit. The round ended whenever the referee intervened. e.g. Both fighters come out, within a few seconds one lands a hook, a fighter is wobbled or dropped, the referee will intervene, the round is over, and will be scored for the guy who landed the punch.

Also, there were much fewer rules, you could wrestle, hold, even choke.

Years ago I remember seeing one old pic showing a fighter with his forearm across the other guys throat while winding up a punch.

Viva Marquis de Queensbury.

I did not know that! Thanks, Brother Uppercut!

I'm going with Sweet Pea with Floyd hot on his heels..I also heard(from my Uncle)that Willie Pep was the man but I have never seen him for myself..

Willie Pep was VERY elusive. It was said that he was the only fighter in history to have won a round without having thrown one punch! I've never gotten to see footage of that round, but I'm sure its gotta be something special.

[rocco1252]

Where was James Toney?

i was going to say James Toney but I cant put him as the greatest of all time, he is up there in the top 5 but what number is he I cant decide. He is an incredible counter puncher that finds openings where there shouldnt be

[rocco1252]

No, a boxing match did not have a limit, some fights lasted over 200 rounds.

I am not lying man, honestly..... the thing is, the rules of engagement were different, and a round had no time limit. The round ended whenever the referee intervened. e.g. Both fighters come out, within a few seconds one lands a hook, a fighter is wobbled or dropped, the referee will intervene, the round is over, and will be scored for the guy who landed the punch.

Also, there were much fewer rules, you could wrestle, hold, even choke.

Years ago I remember seeing one old pic showing a fighter with his forearm across the other guys throat while winding up a punch.

Viva Marquis de Queensbury.

some fights lasted over 200 rounds yes, but a knockdown was considered the end of a round, guys could move around and not hit one another looking for an opening for more than 10 minutes, but once they were hit and went down they had a 30 second grace period before the fight aka next round presumed. If 30 seconds were not enough and they got hit once more after 5 seconds and went down that was the end of the next round for another 30 seconds. This is why some fights lasted over 200 rounds.

Boxing changed as did most sports significantly in the early 1900's and up until the 30's when it almost became what it is now. Thats when the 15 / 3 minute rounds came into play and after there were a few deaths in the ring and people were suffering from brain hemmorages in the early 80's after being able to tough it out getting their as*'s beat for all 15 rounds is when they decided to lower it to 12 rounds.

Just a bit of history on boxing for all you boxing experts.

[Unknown Champ]

Whitaker made people miss real real bad haha

[CubanGuyNYC]

Awww my dude! Trane is the man, but I had to use Monk, as the analogy required some form of percussion for it to make sense. Dig?

Subtleties have always been what made the greats great. Of course you will have those guys like Gatti who have buckets of heart, and are willing to die in the ring, but that has less to do with skill and more to do with touching a chord in the human soul that recognizes how rare that kind of courage and determination is.

That is its own separate beauty.

Man .. you made me smile so hard with your Coltrane reference that my eyes teared up, dude. When I need to get moving and stay busy, his Russian Lullaby has never let me down.

Thanks for affording me the opportunity to appreciate that lost art form with a stranger but a kindred soul, brother.

Beautifully put about Gatti and what guys like him offer(ed) boxing fans. It's something that we connect with on a visceral level.

Kindred spirits are never really strangers, my brother. I'm listening to "Russian Lullaby" right now. I dig any hard bop Coltrane, right up to the avant-garde. Besides "A Love Supreme," probably my fave sides are from his "Live at the Village Vanguard" recordings. I've never been able to get into 'Trane's free jazz period.

As for Monk, I figured that you used him for effect. I dig him, too. But his work -- along with Dexter Gordon, Horace Silver, Jimmy Smith, etc. -- breaks things up between longer stretches of 'Trane, Miles and Mingus.

Back to boxing: there is skill and there is raw determination. The struggle of the human spirit, in visible terms, is understandable by all. And it can be applied by all. The razor-blade, skillful execution of boxing techniques is the domain of a select few masters. We can only watch...and enjoy.

[LeadUppercut]

Also, LOL at boxing and 100 metre sprint comparisons. Re. Tard. Ed.

Nobody is comparing sprinters to boxers. They are comparing the performance of athletes from different era's, regardless of the sport.

[LeadUppercut]

some fights lasted over 200 rounds yes, but a knockdown was considered the end of a round, guys could move around and not hit one another looking for an opening for more than 10 minutes, but once they were hit and went down they had a 30 second grace period before the fight aka next round presumed. If 30 seconds were not enough and they got hit once more after 5 seconds and went down that was the end of the next round for another 30 seconds. This is why some fights lasted over 200 rounds.

Boxing changed as did most sports significantly in the early 1900's and up until the 30's when it almost became what it is now. Thats when the 15 / 3 minute rounds came into play and after there were a few deaths in the ring and people were suffering from brain hemmorages in the early 80's after being able to tough it out getting their as*'s beat for all 15 rounds is when they decided to lower it to 12 rounds.

Just a bit of history on boxing for all you boxing experts.

You pointed out something we had already stated, but, good job anyways

It's called Marquis de Queensbury.

[eklok]

mayweather and his vacationing technique , thats 2 yrs worth of defense baby

[ChowAce]

I feel like Bernard Hopkins should be mentioned.

[SpitBalla]

some fights lasted over 200 rounds yes, but a knockdown was considered the end of a round, guys could move around and not hit one another looking for an opening for more than 10 minutes, but once they were hit and went down they had a 30 second grace period before the fight aka next round presumed. If 30 seconds were not enough and they got hit once more after 5 seconds and went down that was the end of the next round for another 30 seconds. This is why some fights lasted over 200 rounds.

Boxing changed as did most sports significantly in the early 1900's and up until the 30's when it almost became what it is now. Thats when the 15 / 3 minute rounds came into play and after there were a few deaths in the ring and people were suffering from brain hemmorages in the early 80's after being able to tough it out getting their as*'s beat for all 15 rounds is when they decided to lower it to 12 rounds.

Just a bit of history on boxing for all you boxing experts.

Yea, but the deaths also caused other rules changes.

The deaths made the rule change of a fighter having to go to a neutral corner before a count is started, so a fighter can get on his feat without having to eat a bunch of punches.

And yea, English prize fighting could go on for as many rounds as possible. But it wasn't a sport so to speak of, it certainly wasn't a spectator sport. It was illegal, and underground, and it was really just druken fighting, not boxing.

Also, there were much fewer rules, you could wrestle, hold, even choke.

Years ago I remember seeing one old pic showing a fighter with his forearm across the other guys throat while winding up a punch.

Viva Marquis de Queensbury.

Leaduppercut, you seem to be a little confused, or maybe just very unclear. Because the way you've written your post makes it seem like you think the Queens bury rules is what bare knuckeled prize fighting was.

Queensbury rules, was the rules that governed and created boxing. It's not the rules of conduct that governed Prize fighting, the one where there was no limit on rounds, or any rules.

Queensbury rules is basically the creation of boxing, it's not English Prize fighting, it killed English Prize fighting.

And I don't know if anyone has mentioned the first Black Heavy weight, who was considered the greatest defensive wizard, Jack Johnson. He learned to fight blindfolded.