HOFs+ That Trinidad Beat In Their Prime?

[PunchesNbuncheS]

What really ruined Camacho was the beating Rosario gave him even though Camacho won. He was never the same Camacho after that. Rosario psychologically damaged Camacho because after that fight he turned into more of a clown instead of the killer boxer he used to be. Camacho partied & did drugs but everyone knows that Chavez did as well so you can't use that excuse. Chavez was just a better, tougher boxer who knew how to cut the ring off perfectly, that and his brutal body attack was what did Camacho in that night. Chavez ducking Camacho? Don't make me laugh. It was said blah blah, by who......you? Camacho although a gifted fighter with lightning fast hands just wasn't in the same class as Chavez and Chavez would beat him 7 days out of the week & twice on Sunday. Chavez brutalized Rosario & mopped the floor with Camacho because he could walk through their punches but they couldn't handle his body work. I'm pretty sure that they pissed and **** out pure blood after they fought him.

But anyways getting back to Tito I think his best win over a future hall of famer in his prime was his beat down of Vargas. Now I'm not guaranteeing that Vargas will make it into the hall of fame but I think he might. I don't count his fights against Whitaker,Camacho,or Oscar because sweet pea was a shell of the shell that fought Oscar, Camacho was also clearly past it & he didn't beat Oscar so I can't count that one.

[BorderPatrol]

What really ruined Camacho was the beating Rosario gave him even though Camacho won. He was never the same Camacho after that. Rosario psychologically damaged Camacho because after that fight he turned into more of a clown instead of the killer boxer he used to be. Camacho partied & did drugs but everyone knows that Chavez did as well so you can't use that excuse. Chavez was just a better, tougher boxer who knew how to cut the ring off perfectly, that and his brutal body attack was what did Camacho in that night. Chavez ducking Camacho? Don't make me laugh. It was said blah blah, by who......you? Camacho although a gifted fighter with lightning fast hands just wasn't in the same class as Chavez and Chavez would beat him 7 days out of the week & twice on Sunday. Chavez brutalized Rosario & mopped the floor with Camacho because he could walk through their punches but they couldn't handle his body work. I'm pretty sure that they pissed and **** out pure blood after they fought him.

But anyways getting back to Tito I think his best win over a future hall of famer in his prime was his beat down of Vargas. Now I'm not guaranteeing that Vargas will make it into the hall of fame but I think he might. I don't count his fights against Whitaker,Camacho,or Oscar because sweet pea was a shell of the shell that fought Oscar, Camacho was also clearly past it & he didn't beat Oscar so I can't count that one.

You are either kidding or just naive. To seriously say that a fighter as brilliant/dominant as Camacho was at 135 and in his prime, was simply not on Chavez level is just pathetic. It's clear that Camacho was already spent by the time he fought Chavez while Chavez at least had much more left. I think a focused, prime and drug free Camacho, beats Chavez. Especially at 135.

[PunchesNbuncheS]

You are either kidding or just naive. To seriously say that a fighter as brilliant/dominant as Camacho was at 135 and in his prime, was simply not on Chavez level is just pathetic. It's clear that Camacho was already spent by the time he fought Chavez while Chavez at least had much more left. I think a focused, prime and drug free Camacho, beats Chavez. Especially at 135.

I'm neither kidding or naive I'm just telling you what most boxing writers would also tell you if you asked them. You can actually write to some of them if you would like and theyll most likely answer you with the same thing I said. Camacho was a great fighter dont get me wrong, like I said he was a super athletic physical specimen in his prime but it takes more than just athletics and boxing IQ to be at the level of the ATG's in boxing, you need to have what it takes upstairs, in your head. The mentality of a warrior can't be taught because you either have it or you don't. Camacho had almost everything except that. And that's what kept him from being in Chavez's class. You're telling me that a prime Camacho at 135 would beat the prime Chavez that literally brutalized Rosario at 135 when Chavez was also in his prime?

And you're talking about kidding around and being naive?

Im pretty sure you couldn't find many respectable boxing writers, historians, or experts who would agree with you on that one. The problem for Camacho was that he suffered from the same problem that Judah has always suffered from. They have it all in the physical department and they're great smooth elusive but explosive southpaws but there is just something lacking in the most important department, their psyche. When **** gets tough for them they start to give little by little but they start falling apart mentally and you can see it, you could feel it by just watching them. When Camacho realized that he was in for a long night with Rosario at that exact moment something in him changed. When Rosario hurt him he realized that although he was the superior boxer he wasnt the superior fighter and it affected him. Chavez wasnt as fast as Camacho or didn't have the fancy footwork or even the handspeed but Chavez has the perfect style to always beat Camacho. His combination of ring generalship, body attack & iron chin plus the fact that he could stay on Camacho all night long due to him cutting the ring off would always always spell trouble for Camacho. I think we both agree that their best fighting weight was 135 for both of them so you're really telling me that Camacho beats Chavez at 135 where Chavez ranks as one of the most dominant & best 135 pounders ever while Camacho doesn't?

I've had back & forths with boxing writers about how a Duran vs Chavez fight would go at 135 and most people say it would be a war like you've never seen but that most likely Duran would edge him and win an I have no problem with that because we all know how great Duran was so you tell me how do you think Camacho would do against Duran? You don't have to answer, cause I think you understand the point I'm trying to make. Chavez is just all wrong for Camacho and beats him everytime. To further make my point about Camacho not being in Chavez's class just look at how their careers went, Chavez is an all time great recognized by the world and a top 50 best boxers ever and Camacho is known as a coulda woulda shoulda type fighter!

[Peter Griffin]

I'm neither kidding or naive I'm just telling you what most boxing writers would also tell you if you asked them. You can actually write to some of them if you would like and theyll most likely answer you with the same thing I said. Camacho was a great fighter dont get me wrong, like I said he was a super athletic physical specimen in his prime but it takes more than just athletics and boxing IQ to be at the level of the ATG's in boxing, you need to have what it takes upstairs, in your head. The mentality of a warrior can't be taught because you either have it or you don't. Camacho had almost everything except that. And that's what kept him from being in Chavez's class. You're telling me that a prime Camacho at 135 would beat the prime Chavez that literally brutalized Rosario at 135 when Chavez was also in his prime?

And you're talking about kidding around and being naive?

Im pretty sure you couldn't find many respectable boxing writers, historians, or experts who would agree with you on that one. The problem for Camacho was that he suffered from the same problem that Judah has always suffered from. They have it all in the physical department and they're great smooth elusive but explosive southpaws but there is just something lacking in the most important department, their psyche. When **** gets tough for them they start to give little by little but they start falling apart mentally and you can see it, you could feel it by just watching them. When Camacho realized that he was in for a long night with Rosario at that exact moment something in him changed. When Rosario hurt him he realized that although he was the superior boxer he wasnt the superior fighter and it affected him. Chavez wasnt as fast as Camacho or didn't have the fancy footwork or even the handspeed but Chavez has the perfect style to always beat Camacho. His combination of ring generalship, body attack & iron chin plus the fact that he could stay on Camacho all night long due to him cutting the ring off would always always spell trouble for Camacho. I think we both agree that their best fighting weight was 135 for both of them so you're really telling me that Camacho beats Chavez at 135 where Chavez ranks as one of the most dominant & best 135 pounders ever while Camacho doesn't?

I've had back & forths with boxing writers about how a Duran vs Chavez fight would go at 135 and most people say it would be a war like you've never seen but that most likely Duran would edge him and win an I have no problem with that because we all know how great Duran was so you tell me how do you think Camacho would do against Duran? You don't have to answer, cause I think you understand the point I'm trying to make. Chavez is just all wrong for Camacho and beats him everytime. To further make my point about Camacho not being in Chavez's class just look at how their careers went, Chavez is an all time great recognized by the world and a top 50 best boxers ever and Camacho is known as a coulda woulda shoulda type fighter!

[figzuki]

tough question....

In their Prime, it was just Oscar......

But overall its Oscar, Camacho, Whitaker......

[BorderPatrol]

No doubt Chavez had a better career... it only proves my point that Camacho was past it while Chavez had more left in him and went on to bigger things. I also think Rosario softened Camacho up A LOT for Chavez... What I am saying is simple: A focused and prime Camacho is a different fighter altogether and while Chavez whooped him on that night, under those circumstances and point in Camacho's career, you cannot say Chavez was "levels" above a fighter like Camacho. He got the win but as I stated before... that was a Camacho on the decline and anybody who knows the fighter that he was will acknowledge that.

I am not worried about bandwagon politics. In boxing it takes over like no other sport. We have quitters becoming p4p heroes overnight because they looked amazing in one fight and great fighters being downgraded to hype-jobs for losing or having an off night. History has shown fighters to come back and win big in the 2nd fight after a terrible performance in the 1st fight. Camacho was a very talented fighter who let his lifestyle get in the way of a great career.

[jrosales13]

No doubt Chavez had a better career... it only proves my point that Camacho was past it while Chavez had more left in him and went on to bigger things. I also think Rosario softened Camacho up A LOT for Chavez... What I am saying is simple: A focused and prime Camacho is a different fighter altogether and while Chavez whooped him on that night, under those circumstances and point in Camacho's career, you cannot say Chavez was "levels" above a fighter like Camacho. He got the win but as I stated before... that was a Camacho on the decline and anybody who knows the fighter that he was will acknowledge that.

I am not worried about bandwagon politics. In boxing it takes over like no other sport. We have quitters becoming p4p heroes overnight because they looked amazing in one fight and great fighters being downgraded to hype-jobs for losing or having an off night. History has shown fighters to come back and win big in the 2nd fight after a terrible performance in the 1st fight. Camacho was a very talented fighter who let his lifestyle get in the way of a great career.

No doubt that Camacho wasn't the same after the Rosario fight. But, even pre Rosario Camacho was never on JCC level. JCC was always the better fighter. And, even though he wasn't the same after the Rosario fight he was still prime when he fought JCC.

[PunchesNbuncheS]

No doubt Chavez had a better career... it only proves my point that Camacho was past it while Chavez had more left in him and went on to bigger things. I also think Rosario softened Camacho up A LOT for Chavez... What I am saying is simple: A focused and prime Camacho is a different fighter altogether and while Chavez whooped him on that night, under those circumstances and point in Camacho's career, you cannot say Chavez was "levels" above a fighter like Camacho. He got the win but as I stated before... that was a Camacho on the decline and anybody who knows the fighter that he was will acknowledge that.

I am not worried about bandwagon politics. In boxing it takes over like no other sport. We have quitters becoming p4p heroes overnight because they looked amazing in one fight and great fighters being downgraded to hype-jobs for losing or having an off night. History has shown fighters to come back and win big in the 2nd fight after a terrible performance in the 1st fight. Camacho was a very talented fighter who let his lifestyle get in the way of a great career.

I know the fighter he was but I also know who he wasn't & he wasnt the guy that once **** got really tough that would remain focused and make adjustment after adjustment to fight smarter instead of harder but regardless of that I acknowledge that he was a great fighter, I'm not downing the man, I'm not a rican hater or a Filipino hater or a anybody hater I'm simply a boxing fan and as a boxing fan who really watches even for the most subtle of things in a fighter I can tell you that regardless of the partying and drug use Camacho would always start to give if he couldn't just completely dominate you with his gifts and boxing IQ. Like I said before Chavez was also heavy into partying and doing ****loads of coke as well but Chavez had that certain "it" that Camacho lacked and that's why he went on to have the better career. I agree with you that Camacho wasn't in his prime when he fought Chavez but it wasn't that he wasn't in his physical prime because he clearly was but was wasn't prime in him was his mentality. He had encountered adversity against Rosario that he wasn't used to and it shook him up, did something to his confidence.

I never said Chavez was levels and levels ahead of him as if he didn't belong in the ring with him, now you're just trying to make it seem like I said Camacho was a journeyman which I clearly didn't but what I said was that he wasn't in his class and I stand by it. Just that small psychological difference between them puts Chavez in a class above Camacho and I'm sure that deep down you know what I'm talking about because you're not dumb and I know that you also look at the psychological side of a fighter. Even if a boxer is just one class above another fighter doesn't that still mean that they're not in the same class???

You're right Camacho was a very talented fighter but in my assessment of him he let psychological flaws as well his lifestyle get in the way of a potentially great career!

[ELHURACAN58]

Tito ruined careers. He fought a lot of guys in their primes.

Oba Carr
Yori Boy
De La Hoya
Vargas
David Reid

Not to mention he fought guys with more experience than him and beat them like they where cab drivers.

Whitaker
Camacho
Blocker

And then there where guys who right now seem like not that much but where considered dangerous guys for Tito at the time.

Troy Waters
Hugo Pineda
Mamadou Thiam
Ricardo Mayorga

[Toney Loc]

No doubt that Camacho wasn't the same after the Rosario fight. But, even pre Rosario Camacho was never on JCC level. JCC was always the better fighter. And, even though he wasn't the same after the Rosario fight he was still prime when he fought JCC.

That's all that needs to be said. SMH at anyone even thinking that Hector Camacho is somehow greater than Chavez.