Jack Johnson vs Joe Louis

[Super_Lightweight]

hmm

Willard, who was very inexperienced and only 3 yrs younger than Johnson.

Incorrect. Willard was TEN years younger.

Secondly, Johnson WAS the predominant black fighter of the 1900's. YOU must believe in tooth-faeries to state otherwise. You say that Johnson didn't beat Langford and Jeanette, which is a straight out lie. He beat both, and he beat Jeanette several times.

As for Hart, here's where I see you really don't know what you're talking about. Hart got the **** beat out of him by Johnson. Hart's face was beaten to a pulp by Johnson's counter-punches, and the white ref scored the fight for the white fighter, who was Hart. Also, Hart was OWNED by Tommy Burns who went on to lose every round to Jack Johnson when they fought.

In his fight with Ketchel (160 lbs.), Ketchel drops him with one punch, a right hand. A punch Ketchel wasn't even set to throw becase he jumped when he threw it. Now, that leads me to my next point.

The reason he got dropped is obviously because he was caught by surprise. Johnson and Ketchel were friends and Johnson agreed to take it easy on him. This made the fight boring and the crowd booed, so Ketchel launched a right hand and bobmed Johnson with it. Johnson got up quickly and promptly knocked Ketchel the **** out. Also, I've read, saw, and heard from reliable sources (PBS, Ken Burns, Bert Sugar) that yes, the teeth had been imbedded in his glove. In any case, I agree that Johnson was lying when he said he threw the fight vs Willard. He was legit KO'd because he was out of shape and past his prime.

And Blackie...don't even try to dispute that Jeffries ducked Johnson. It is a documented fact noted by every boxing historian and newspapers at the time. That's how it was back then. When Jeffries was champion he stated he would not fight a negro, plain and simple.

He also fought Hank Griffin 2x, knocking him out and winning a 4 rd decison the year before Griffin beat Johnson.

You forgot to mention the two fights after that which were ruled draws between Griffin and Johnson.

Willard left Johnson unconcious for 5 min, just like Joe Choynski did near the end of Joe's career in Johnson's hometown of Galveston.

Johnson would have beaten Choynski soundly had they fought at the time Johnson was champ, and also, Willard beat Johnson when Johnson was 37 and overweight...big deal.

Also...Johnson beat McVea 3 or 4 times, KO'ing him in their last fight, so don't bs me. Questioning his opposition is pretty ******. Additionally, Johnson was never KO'd or dropped legitimately by a middlweight in his prime, which is what we are talking about here.

Anyways...if you feel Louis would win, I agree most likely, but you need to learn how to back up your arguments without saying fasle things about Jack Johnson.

[KidBlackie]

[[[Incorrect. Willard was TEN years younger.

Secondly, Johnson WAS the predominant black fighter of the 1900's. YOU must believe in tooth-faeries to state otherwise. You say that Johnson didn't beat Langford and Jeanette, which is a straight out lie. He beat both, and he beat Jeanette several times.]]]
================================================== =

Dude, go back to school. Johnson was born in 1878, Willard in 1881. Go to boxrec or cyberboxing and check out the essentials. Clearly you can't follow a time line. Johnson never faced Jeannette, Langford, McVey or Wills in their primes. Johnson only beat Jeannette once, and Jeannette beat him once in spite of only being a novice fighter. Johnson only faced Langford once when Sam was coming up from lightweights. From the time Johnson beat the 150 lb version of Sam to the time Willard flipped Johnson's switch, Langford was beating and knocking out a who's who of HOF heavies and era contenders at a 4-1 rate compared to Johnson's meager comp.

Johnson was the most publicized fighter of the period, not the best. That was Langford. Moreover, you're just dead wrong about Jeffries, who also fought another black contender, Bob Armstrong, when Jeff was an up and coming novice. I know what Jeff said, that he would not defend his title against a black heavy, but he grew up fighting the best black heavy contenders and scheduled Griffin in their last fight while Jeff was still the champ in a non title bout. Maybe if Griffin had performed better Jeff might have given him a title shot, but Griffin went and whupped Johnson the next year, so Griffin was the real deal that Jeff handled twice. 6 of Jeffs 22 career bouts were against top black contenders and one champ, Johnson. The record is clear and clearly you're dead wrong about Jeffries.

You have some serious delusions about Johnson brought about by the Great White Hope broadway play of the 60s which is historically inaccurate. It's a PLAY!. Geoffry Beane just published the latest Johnson bio. Read it. Read Randy Gordons bio. Both are more sympathetic to Johnson than I am, but they don't candy coat his ass like you do. They deal in the factual timeline of events and snapshot bios of all relevant charactors in his life. Johnson was a talented fighter, but deeply flawed, conflicted and very, very selfish and self destructive which shows in his record.

Joe Louis was several grades above Johnson both in character and in the ring.

[KidBlackie]

[[[As for Hart, here's where I see you really don't know what you're talking about. Hart got the **** beat out of him by Johnson. Hart's face was beaten to a pulp by Johnson's counter-punches, and the white ref scored the fight for the white fighter, who was Hart. Also, Hart was OWNED by Tommy Burns who went on to lose every round to Jack Johnson when they fought.]]]
================================

You bring up irrelevant details to buttress a weak historical foundation. Johnson challenged Hart, OK? Hart took the fight to Johnson and staggered him at one point. Johnson was warned by the ref repeatedly for holding and before the bout was warned about holding. News reports are mixed about the outcome, but most agree the Johnson was very unimpressive and that face notwithstanding, Hart was clearly the aggressor who made the fight a fight. You act like it was a slamdunk Johnson victory snatched by "The Man."

It wasn't, but it was an example of Johnson not being able to adapt and perform up to the conditions which clearly dictated at every point that the ref was not pleased with grappling, something most fans of the era were not pleased with Johnson for. He blew his first high profile fight, plain and simple. In the end, he got many more chances than he ever afforded McVea, Langford, Jeannette, and Wills, so, again, spare me the violins and hankies for Johnson.

[Enayze]

That is a falsehood. Tell me what skilled fighter was able to beat Johnson once he got the championship? No one did until he was 37 and out of shape.

Louis should be favored of course.

I could see Johnson's style giving Louis fits.

LOL you could see Johnsons style giving Louis fits? Hhave you ever seen a fight of Johnsons? I've seen one fight of Johnsons, and that was against Willard, and the tape was very fast, and old, meaning the projection wasn't spielbergs work, so how can you tell what style Johnson had? He held his arms low like Vitali, very similiar to Vitali actually, other than that, you can't say **** about Johnson.


PS Johnson would win.

[Super_Lightweight]

hmm

LOL you could see Johnsons style giving Louis fits? Hhave you ever seen a fight of Johnsons? I've seen one fight of Johnsons, and that was against Willard, and the tape was very fast, and old, meaning the projection wasn't spielbergs work, so how can you tell what style Johnson had? He held his arms low like Vitali, very similiar to Vitali actually, other than that, you can't say **** about Johnson.


PS Johnson would win.

When Johnson fought Willard he was 37. I've seen Johnson's fights vs Jeffries, Ketchel, Burns, and others, and you can tell his STYLE. It's easy to tell his style, but not his speed from the films. Also you can judge his style based on documents and bios from that time period.

In Ken Burns' film about Johnson it was stated Willard was 10 yrs younger than Johnson, so it is true. Your source is incorrect, Blackie.

You have some serious delusions about Johnson brought about by the Great White Hope broadway play of the 60s which is historically inaccurate.

I have never even seen this play you speak of. Assuming akes an ass out of you and me.

And...Johnson foguth Jeanette and deserved the win several times, but in the old days they would call a "ND" if the bout did not end in KO. Basically, your flat wrong to insinuate that Jeanette was the better fighter. No one would say that. Additionally, Johnson got the most press because he was the best the blacks had to offer, and was seen as a threat. That distinction did not belong to McVea or Jeanette or Griffin.

And so what if Louis has more "character" than Johnson? What does that have to do with anything. We are talking about them fighting each other.

[Parodius]

No one really knows who would've won. If I had to pick. I will go with Louis.

[KidBlackie]

[[[I've seen Johnson's fights vs Jeffries, Ketchel, Burns, and others, and you can tell his STYLE. It's easy to tell his style, but not his speed from the films. Also you can judge his style based on documents and bios from that time period.

In Ken Burns' film about Johnson it was stated Willard was 10 yrs younger than Johnson, so it is true. Your source is incorrect, Blackie]]]
==============================================

You see Johnson's style against inferior quality contenders, not Joe Louis. Louis fought real heavies, not old retired champs, middleweights, and journeymen for his title fights. He destroyed big fighters like Willard with ease.

I've seen the Burns doc 3xs and don't recall him making that claim about Willard's age. Regardless, I gave you Willard's birthday which can be cross checked by my internet references and most any other reference about Willard. It also checks out in my Guiness book on boxing.

Like I previously pointed out, you repeat the tired old myths about Johnson which he promoted in his autobio that has been widely discredited and the Great White Hope play. Burns did an OK job in his doc, but he had a political agenda. The Beane and Gordon bios are much more comprehensive. Even so Burns noted that Johnson drew the color line and refused to meet the black contenders I mentioned.

You've never studied the subject like I have so you flounder around and make ridiculous claims like Johnson beat Jeannette several times. Very little of what you have posted is factual other than Johnson beat Burns and held the belt for a few years. I suggest you pay attention to the timeline of the fighters and the events.

Here's another likely myth, the 105 degree temps in Havana for the Willard fight. It is rare to have temps over 90 in Havana and if you pay attention to international weather reports most April highs in Havana range in the 80s. According to the weather bureau, the highest recorded temp in KeyWest over the past 100 yrs was 91 degrees. In the year of the Willard fight it was in mid 80s. KW is 90 miles from Havana and their temps are almost identical. Perhaps there was a huge heatwave that day that doesn't show in the record, but I doubt it. Regardless, because of the humidity it was plenty hot, but 105 is a media mistake that has never been corrected and passed on like a NY Times Old Wive's Tale. I've seen no reports on the fight where the temp was even listed.

[Ascended]

Only lunatics say jack would have a chance