Jack Johnson vs Joe Louis

[Super_Lightweight]

Back in the 1900's, Jack Johnson was heavily avoided by white fighters. The predominant white champion at the time retired in order not to fight him, and flat out said he would "never fight a negro". But, when an Australian promoter put up 30,000 dollars for champ Tommy Burns to fight Johnson (because Burns said he wouldn't fight him for any less than this astronomical sum which he thought no promoter could come up with) the fight was made. Johnson made Burns his *****, embarrassing the best fighter the whites had to offer and winning by TKO when the police stepped in the ring to stop the fight.

Basically, Johnson didn't lose legit once when on top of his game. He lost finally when he was 37, in a fight outside when it was 105 degrees to a man that outweighed him by 25 lbs and was 5 inches taller than himself.

When Joe Louis came onto the scene in the 30's, Johnson wanted to train him but Louis' managers said no, insulting Johnson, saying that Johnson was everything they didn't want Louis to be. That left a bitter taste in Johnson's mouth who bas a black icon. When Louis fought Schmeling the first time, Jack Johnson predicted he would lose by KO, and he did. He got KTFO'd in fact.

Basically...all this drama...all this disrespect...who would have won a fight between Joe Louis and Jack Johnson had they been able to fight each other in their primes, having the same resources of the 1940's to train?

[JohnL]

Louis. Better skills and discipline. But I would love to see it

[hollister]

Jack Johnson fought huge out of shape guys that weren't even fighters and skilled but hugely undersized fighters for the most part, and lost to the first remotely skilled fighter that didn't give up 40 lbs. and 5 or 6 inches of reach to him. Jack Johnson was the 1900's equivalent of John Ruiz. He wrestled, he held and hit, and don't forget the guy that came out of retirement to fight him and had to lose like 70 or 80 lbs. also fought him outside in the sweltering heat and lost, wonder why? One really can't blame Johnson for his resume, boxingstyles were very different then and fighters on the average were much smaller. He also fought the best fighters that would fight him. That being said, Johnson was nowhere near the fighter that Louis was. Johnson wouldn't be able to hold and hit Jouis because Jouis was just under 6'3 himself. Jouis also had a terrific jab, a punch seldom used by Johnson. Bottom line, IMO Johnson would have taken as bad a beating as Tony Galento did during Louis' bum of the month club. I don't even think Johnson could have made it a competetive fight.

[salsanchezfan]

Johnson's got a real chance, but I think part of what made him "Jack Johnson" was that he used the 20-25 round (often finish fights) distance to his advantage, letting his opponent waste energy early trying to get through his guard, then come on later. In a 15-round fight (1940's, after all), he'd have no such time to play and bide his time. He'd have to work. He'd frustrate Louis, but Louis's Achilles Heel was movers, and Johnson didn't move as much as many think. He was great defensively, but didn't skip around that much.

This is why I pick Louis in a 15-round decision. Close, boring, but clear decision.

[Super_Lightweight]

and lost to the first remotely skilled fighter that didn't give up 40 lbs. and 5 or 6 inches of reach to him.

That is a falsehood. Tell me what skilled fighter was able to beat Johnson once he got the championship? No one did until he was 37 and out of shape.

Louis should be favored of course.

I could see Johnson's style giving Louis fits.

[Kid Achilles]

Louis would win but there's a lot of **** talking going on concerning Johnson. Johnson was a bad, bad man who could really ****ing punch and had great reflexes and a hard style to hang with once you got in there with him. He looked flat footed and hittable on film, but trust me most of those guys (who were better than you think) couldn't lay a hand on him. Comparing him to John Ruiz? That's ****ed up. You better apologize before old Papa Jack's ghost rips you a new one.

[Super_Lightweight]

hmm

I thought it was funny when they brought the supposed champs (Burns and Jeffries) in to fight Johnson and the Galveston Giant just played with them, laughing at them while he beat their asses. He pissed off a lot of white ppl doing that. Johnson had a not-so-crowd pleasing style, but he did throw punches, and they hurt. ****ing had Stanley Ketchel's teeth imbedded in his glove after KO'ing him.

That's power.

Comparing him to Ruiz was a crime. Ruiz does not have the heart of a Jack Johnson. The styles are even only vaguely similar. Jack wasn't afraid to hit you, and he parrayed punches a lot instead of just hugging when attacked.

[KidBlackie]

[[[Tell me what skilled fighter was able to beat Johnson once he got the championship? No one did until he was 37 and out of shape.]]]
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Louis is so much better than Johnson that he'd pound Johnson a deeper shade of purple in a sloppy fight that has Johnson grappling for his life. You really should check out Johnson's title comp. It's full of forgotten journeymen, middleweights, a long retired obese former champ and then Willard, who was very inexperienced and only 3 yrs younger than Johnson. Willard left Johnson unconcious for 5 min, just like Joe Choynski did near the end of Joe's career in Johnson's hometown of Galveston.

Johnson's best came after the Choynski fight. He could still be beat as did black contender Griffen and Hart showed, but he was in with some stiffer heavy comp than he faced as champion. He ducked the best black contenders who were just entering their primes while he had the belt, McVey, Langford, Jeannete and Wills and there were better white heavy contenders he could have faced.

Louis only lost 3 fights, all to HOFers and was never dropped or KOed by middleweights like Johnson was and beat every kind of style and size of fighter. He was just several grades above Johnson who I am certain was the best whoring champ. Ain't nobody gonna outwhore Jack!

[KidBlackie]

[[[The predominant white champion at the time retired in order not to fight him, and flat out said he would "never fight a negro".]]]
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Dude, I bet you believe in tooth faeries too. You're referring to Jim Jeffries who barely finished his career with 2 dozen bouts, but as a novice fought the best black fighter of his era Peter Jackson and KOed him. He also fought Hank Griffin 2x, knocking him out and winning a 4 rd decison the year before Griffin beat Johnson. If he was really ducking Johnson, then why would he come out of a long retirement, sweat off almost 100 lbs, and take on Johnson as an old rusty fighter?

Did you know that Johnson lost to Marvin Hart in a fight that likely would have put him in the tournament for Jeffries belt that Hart ended up taking or maybe secure one last bout against Jeffries before he retired? Johnson's biggest problem came making some big money fights against white contenders before he won his title, but he managed to get Gardner and Hart, so someone was willing to fight him.

[hollister]

I thought it was funny when they brought the supposed champs (Burns and Jeffries) in to fight Johnson and the Galveston Giant just played with them, laughing at them while he beat their asses. He pissed off a lot of white ppl doing that. Johnson had a not-so-crowd pleasing style, but he did throw punches, and they hurt. ****ing had Stanley Ketchel's teeth imbedded in his glove after KO'ing him.

That's power.

Comparing him to Ruiz was a crime. Ruiz does not have the heart of a Jack Johnson. The styles are even only vaguely similar. Jack wasn't afraid to hit you, and he parrayed punches a lot instead of just hugging when attacked.

First, I said remotely skilled fighter that didn't give up 40 lbs. and 5 or 6 inches of reach to him. Jess Willard wasn't all that skilled in my book, but he knew how to use his height and reach to box the shorter Johnson and keep him from wrestling, until Johnson tired and Willard was able to land the right hand that ko'd him. He always denied that he was ko'd and alot of people buy that, but think about it. In his fight with Ketchel (160 lbs.), Ketchel drops him with one punch, a right hand. A punch Ketchel wasn't even set to throw becase he jumped when he threw it. Now, that leads me to my next point. Most everyone who is a boxing fan and knows of Johnson knows about him supposedly implanting Ketchel's teeth in his glove when he floored and ko'd Ketchel only seconds after being dropped himself. This simply isn't true. If you watch the film in slow motion, you can see that Johnson uses the right glove to wipe the left glove. It was a right hand that dropped Ketchel, so the teeth should have been embedded in the right glove. Since the whole rumor is based on the fact that he wiped his glove after dropping Ketchel, this rumor doesn't hold water. Jeffries is the guy who had retired from boxing and came back as a "white hope". The guy had no real desire to fight anymore and coming back to satisfy the white race when his heart wasn't in the sport anymore was a huge mistake. Couple that with the fact that he was supposedly right around 300 lbs. and lost 70 something pounds to get back to the 225 lbs. he had previously fought at, and fought Jack at his prime, in 100 degree heat, outside,..oh and don't forget, Burns was how heavy? How tall? Oh, about 5'7 and 160 lbs. Johnson wouldn't be able to hold Louis' arm down with one hand and hit him with the other because Louis had considerable reach and punched in combinations, when he wasn't peppering his opponents with that jab of his.