IF Haye Beat Wlad, and Vitali Beat Haye, Where Would You Rank Vitali All Time

[Joeyzagz]

And yet it's the less athletic brother (Vitali) who has supposedly the better chin and stamina. Exactly my point.

Vitali actually has a lower BMI than Wlad Klitschko, slightly healthier. The Klitschkos know just as well as I do that being fat is a hindrance in boxing not an advantage. They have NEVER had a BMI over 30(obese) in their entire careers, but alot of their opponents do.

Lennox was obese only twice in his career. Once was in the loss to Rahman (253) and the other was when he gutted out a win against Leatherface(257). Stop glorifying Fat people when the best boxers dont even subscribe to that religion.

[Dave Rado]

Read my previous post: They have the luxary of being athletic because they are TALL.


And yet it's the less athletic brother (Vitali) who has supposedly the better chin and stamina. Exactly my point.

Vitali is always in tip top condition, so you have no point. You're just trolling.

Athleticism on its own isn't sufficient to make a great fighter, there are many factors that go into that (Michael Grant had no boxing ability, so in his case his athleticism didn't help him much). But being in shape sure as hell helps, and your pretence that it doesn't is just hilarious. And Vitali is always in great shape.

Because both brothers are so highly skilled they rule the division, but just think about who would be champ if they weren't around:
Valuev (chubby)
Chambers (chubby)
Peter (chubby)
Solis (chubby)
or even Toney (chubby)

Valuev is not chubby and is extremely mediocre in any case. He lost to Haye and Chagaev and most felt he also lost to a 50 year old Holyfield.

Chambers was in very good shape for his fights with Wlad and Dimitrenko, but was in less good shape for his fight with Povetkin, which was a major reason why he lost to Povetkin.

Solis was a great amateur but is very mediocre now, precisely because he has fallen in love with food and out of love with training.

Toney!!!! You're just trolling aren't you!!!

All you're pointing out is that there are very few in shape Heavyweights around at the moment, very similar to the situation when Tyson came on the scene in the early 80s and scythed through the division. Fat fighters like the aptly named Tony Tubbs, and Trevor Berbick, had held alphabet titles, but were totally destroyed by an in shape and highly athletic (but very short) young Tyson.

It was athletic Wlad who got floored against Peter, not chubby Toney.

Wlad totally dominated Peter in the rematch and won both their fights. Toney lost twice to Peter and was comprehensively outboxed by one of the most limited boxers in Heavyweight history in their rematch.

And Toney's style happens to be one that uses relatively little energy, so he was able to get away to a greater extent than most with being a lump of lard, because he uses no footwork to speak of, just superb upper body movement and timing. But he would have done far better than he did had he not been so badly out of shape.

If you seriously think Wlad and Vitali should stop training so hard and should eat more burgers, and should turn up 40 pounds overweight, like Toney and Solis, and that they'd do better as a result, then you're not only ******, you're also insane.

[hweightblogger]

So all those chubby you listed aren't world champs because athletic HWs like Haye and the Klits beat them.

Haye beat only 1 champ: Valuev who is still offline due to health problems and who lost due to bad luck (MD).

And as I wrote the Klitschkos can be athletic because they are tall.

[cklmaced]

Haye beat only 1 champ: Valuev who is still offline due to health problems and who lost due to bad luck (MD).

And as I wrote the Klitschkos can be athletic because they are tall.

That doesn't answer my question where are these chubby champions past or present.

[hweightblogger]

Vitali actually has a lower BMI than Wlad Klitschko, slightly healthier.

Aaah, the useless BMI. Unfortunately for you the BMI does not measure a single person's fat level but is used by scientists to measure the obesity of GROUPS (e.g. fast food eaters in a period of several decades).

Any other use is not legitimate and prime Mike Tyson (= pure muscles) would be OBESE level #1.

Never mention the BMI again.

[Money Shot]

Haye beat only 1 champ: Valuev who is still offline due to health problems and who lost due to bad luck (MD).

And as I wrote the Klitschkos can be athletic because they are tall.

Haye MD'd Valuev. Wlad stops HW world champions. See the difference?

[cklmaced]

Haye MD'd Valuev. Wlad stops HW world champions. See the difference?

Haye stopped Ruiz troll and nobody has stopped Valeuv.

[hweightblogger]

Vitali is always in tip top condition, so you have no point. You're just trolling.

You have a strange definition of trolling.

But being in shape sure as hell helps, and your pretence that it doesn't is just hilarious. And Vitali is always in great shape.

Being in shape in my book does not mean ATHLETIC. That is the whole point. Chris Arreola is utterly in shape, just as SUMOs are. Just as chubby shot-putters are. That they are fat has nothing to do with "being in shape". They train, they train, they train --> they are in shape. And BECAUSE they are FAT it helps them against heavy punchers like the Klitschkos.

Valuev is not chubby and is extremely mediocre in any case.

Valuev is chubby. And, yes, he is mediocre, and yet has not lost once properly, let alone got KOed.

He lost to Haye and Chagaev and most felt he also lost to a 50 year old Holyfield.

No revisionism please.

Chambers was in very good shape for his fights with Wlad and Dimitrenko

Chambers is chubby. Ask any current-era hater.

Solis was a great amateur but is very mediocre now, precisely because he has fallen in love with food and out of love with training.

But that is exactly my words: If you don't train you are unconditioned. As long as you train the chubbiness will protect you. It's the "untrained'ness" that is bad, not the chubbyness.

Fat fighters like the aptly named Tony Tubbs, and Trevor Berbick, had held alphabet titles, but were totally destroyed by an in shape and highly athletic (but very short) young Tyson.

Berbick? Fat? For the Tyson fight? What are you talking about?

That Tubbs was chubby, yet got KOed fast, does not disprove anything I said because I believe had he been less chubby he would have been KOed faster.

But you can not single out fights, you will always find some fattie being KOed fast and some athletie being KOed later. You have to see the global picture, not single fights. And so far I have seen enough superheavyweight fights to know that chubbiness is an advantage at superheavyweight.

Not in lower division because there you need the full package of speed, reflexes, upper body movement etc etc, thus fat would hinder you.

Wlad totally dominated Peter in the rematch and won both their fights.

In the rematch Peter was in the most athletic shape of his life... and got handled much easier.

Toney lost twice to Peter and was comprehensively outboxed by one of the most limited boxers in Heavyweight history in their rematch.

EXACTLY. Toney was outboxed and was hit far more than Wlad YET HE DIDN'T GASS nor GO DOWN because FAT PROTECTS. Exactly my words.

But he would have done far better than he did had he not been so badly out of shape.

Yes, fat limits your speed.
Yes, fat limits your footwork.
Yes, fat limits your movement.

But at heavyweight you don't need these things necessarily.

It's far more important to be able to take a punch.

And fat makes you more punch resistant.

All such things like footwork, speed etc are meaningless if you face a hard puncher and cannot take a punch.

Athletic Toney would be better at footwork, movement, speed etc. That is true. But he would have been KOed easier. And since at superheavyweight being KOed is a greater danger than being out-footworked fat is a greater advantage than a disadvantage.

If you seriously think Wlad and Vitali should stop training so hard and should eat more burgers, and should turn up 40 pounds overweight, like Toney and Solis, and that they'd do better as a result, then you're not only ******, you're also insane.

I claimed the opposite: Wlad can be (and should be) athletic because athleticism WORKS for tall and/or highly skilled fighters.

[Joeyzagz]

Aaah, the useless BMI. Unfortunately for you the BMI does not measure a single person's fat level but is used by scientists to measure the obesity of GROUPS (e.g. fast food eaters in a period of several decades).

Any other use is not legitimate and prime Mike Tyson (= pure muscles) would be OBESE level #1.

Never mention the BMI again.

BMI is by no means perfect, but still pretty good at pegging unhealthy guys.

Tyson was an exceptional FREAK and nobody can pull off that body type. Tua tried to emulate it but was too fat to strap on any major belts in his career.

The good champs from Dempsey to Louis to Klitschko have all been fit and healthy. The Galento's and Arreolas were not built to reign.

[hweightblogger]

BMI is by no means perfect, but still pretty good at pegging unhealthy guys.

It's not. BMI is measured on single individuals but has only value for AVERAGE body types and definitely not for athletes:

(wikipedia) BMI was explicitly cited by Keys as being appropriate for population studies, and inappropriate for individual diagnosis.

The BMI is generally used as a means of correlation between groups related by general mass and can serve as a vague means of estimating adiposity.

BMI categories do not take into account many factors such as frame size and muscularity. The categories also fail to account for varying proportions of fat, bone, cartilage, water weight, and more.

One basic problem, especially in athletes, is that muscle weight contributes to BMI. Some professional athletes would be "overweight" or "obese" according to their BMI, despite them carrying little fat, unless the number at which they are considered "overweight" or "obese" is adjusted upward in some modified version of the calculation.

As I said: Never mention the BMI again as a proof for anything. Believe your EYES more than the BMI.