Mayweather was born with a gift, did Manny developed his with Roach?

[Gino Ros]

He was one of the most talented pressure fighters of all time. There are many different types of talent.

What "supreme talents" did Joe Frazier possess?

[D4thincarnation]

Manny has a lot more natural ability than Floyd.

Boxing is learned, no one is born with innate knowledge of it.

Manny was already a world champion before he teamed up with Roach and one the second one with in months of team up with with Roach.

If Manny and Floyd switch places at birth, who would improve and who would decline.

Manny was bought up in abject poverty and Mayweather was brought up in a boxing gym.

[Pullcounter]

yea, dont thank floyd's daddy or uncle anyway, im sure he'd be just as good growing up in the streets and making his own style

hell no. without wifebeater SR and uncle wifebeater, wifebeater jr wouldn't be nearly as successful as he is now.

[studentofthegam]

Of course you can't be an ATG without supreme talent. No one with a brain would dispute that. The question we're debating isn't about black and white, it's about shades of grey. Stop over-simplifying.

If I thought everything was black and white I couldnt debate. That wasnt over simplifying. I was making the point that growning up in a gym doesnt make you a great boxer. Its that extra something or gray area that we are talking about. People always use the term "it factor" in sports. When ever it comes to Floyd they act as if it doesnt really exist. I was unbias when describing both fighters. Check the record.

[Gino Ros]

hell no. without wifebeater SR and uncle wifebeater, wifebeater jr wouldn't be nearly as successful as he is now.

Are you mad because Manny's Filipino Deadbeat Dad abandoned the family?

BTW, what HAS manny's father accomplished in his life?

[Gino Ros]

Manny was bought up in abject poverty .

Isn't that because Manny's Filipino Deadbeat Dad abandoned his own family?

[Dave Rado]

If I thought everything was black and white I couldnt debate. That wasnt over simplifying. I was making the point that growning up in a gym doesnt make you a great boxer. Its that extra something or gray area that we are talking about. People always use the term "it factor" in sports. When ever it comes to Floyd they act as if it doesnt really exist. I was unbias when describing both fighters. Check the record.

But no one was claiming that growing up in the gym is, on its own, enough to make anyone even a good - never mind a great - boxer. So by contradicting an extreme point that no one was making, you were either over-simplifying, or resorting to straw man arguments. The issue that was under debate was whether, if Pacquiao had had the advantage that growing up in the gym does give you, as opposed to being a half-starved street urchin, he would have had more ring smarts at an earlier age than was the case. It was a shade of grey issue and you were trying to make it into a black and white issue.

[Dave Rado]

What "supreme talents" did Joe Frazier possess?

He fought with an intensity, accuracy, and pressure that only a handful of fighters in history have ever equalled. He more effective at cutting off the ring than all but a handful of Heavyweights in history. He had an ATG left hook. He threw great combinations, especially to the body. He had excellent footwork and balance. He was able to get leverage into almost all his punches despite throwing a far higher volume than most fighters. He had the ability to shrug off pain and keep pressuring when hurt to an extent that few fighters do.

[D4thincarnation]

Isn't that because Manny's Filipino Deadbeat Dad abandoned his own family?

Yes this no doubt made his early life harsher. Makes Manny's achievements all the more amazing.

If he had Floyd's life he would have been even better.

[Gino Ros]

He fought with an intensity, accuracy, and pressure that only a handful of fighters in history have ever equalled. He more effective at cutting off the ring than all but a handful of Heavyweights in history. He had an ATG left hook. He threw great combinations, especially to the body. He had excellent footwork and balance. He was able to get leverage into almost all his punches despite throwing a far higher volume than most fighters. He had the ability to shrug off pain and keep pressuring when hurt to an extent that few fighters do.

Those are not natural talents.

I asked you what supreme natural talents did Joe Frazier possess.

Fighting with intensity is not a talent. Being a pressure fighter is not a talent.

Gutting it out through pain is not a talent.