Should opponents below 215 lbs count on a heavyweight's record?

[hweightblogger]

Not possible to have Lennox above Foreman. No way, no how.

Lennox has a far better record than Foreman.

[Steak]

Lennox has a far better record than Foreman.

its personally hard for me to rank them. their careers are practically complete pposites.

Lewis's career is jam packed full of a good wins...but not really any 'great' ones. Holyfield would work if he was a little younger, and admittedly the Vitali win was slightly controversial.

Foreman on the other hand had HUGE wins over the likes of Norton and Frazierx2. And even though theyre ignored in comparison, wins over Peralta, Chuvalo, Roman and Lyle were well regarded at the time.
and then theres that little thing about being 45 years old and beating the best heavyweight in the world. Also deserving a win over a future titleholder at 48 is notable.

hard to say when the dynamics of their career are so much different.

[hweightblogger]

...Valuev deserved a loss against a former Cruiserweight 45 year old man who had previously been suspended from boxing.

Anything but the official final results is revisionism.

and what about a 175lb fighter being #4 at HW currently?

For CURRENT rankings different rules apply than for career rankings as can be seen by the fact that boxers who are highly ranked by the Ring mag play hardly any role in all-time rankings of the Ring Mag.

Current rankings consider things like "Whom has he beaten in the last year" or "Is it now his prime?".

and top guys like Chambers and Povetkin would EASILY be 200lbs or less if they lost all that extra fat.

The heavyweight division is not the "fatless division" and neither the "sixpack division". It never was. Ali and Frazier themselves were overweight (try to find a six-pack picture of Ali).

Weight and gender (I guess?) are the only defining factors.

[americanbot]

the problem with todays heavyweight boxing fans is they mistake being fat and out of shape for being some kind of "big brute" heavyweight. most of these guys are just fat.

those fighters of old would come in at tip top shape & cared about their careers. most of the ones of today think eating at burger king is some kind of training......

please do not compare....

[hweightblogger]

its personally hard for me to rank them. their careers are practically complete pposites.

Lewis's career is jam packed full of a good wins...but not really any 'great' ones. Holyfield would work if he was a little younger, and admittedly the Vitali win was slightly controversial.

Foreman on the other hand had HUGE wins over the likes of Norton and Frazierx2. And even though theyre ignored in comparison, wins over Peralta, Chuvalo, Roman and Lyle were well regarded at the time..

The difference is when you analyze Foreman's opponents' records.

I analyzed 44'000+(!) fights (= Foreman's fights + Lennox' fights + opponents' fights) and it's clearly visible who is better and who worse. There is no arguing about it.

Once you delete bum-fights off the record of Lennox's opponents and Lewis opponents it becomes much clearer. For example you mention Ron Lyle. Lyle's career record against non-bums is 8-3 (all his other fights were against bums). Norton's is 9-6.

When you add up all these records then the following results come out which clearly prove who is better and who worse:

[hweightblogger]

the problem with todays heavyweight boxing fans is they mistake being fat and out of shape for being some kind of "big brute" heavyweight. most of these guys are just fat.

those fighters of old would come in at tip top shape

Nonsense. Ali himself was the Lard of the Rings at times. As was Frazier. Holmes, too. etc etc

Of course you can find some pictures where Ali looks good. But this is far from being typical.

The only exception are Ken Norton (who had not enough fat to resist power punchers) and George Foreman. The others are either sub-heavies (thus they have a cruiser physique) or are very comparable to nowadays.

[Joeyzagz]

If 1 fighter weighs below 200 then it's not a heavyweight fight anymore. Where do you want to draw a line? Below 180 lbs it's not a heavyweight anymore? Below 170? Sorry, I go by the official rules: Both fighters 200+.

Bad precedent.

What if the rules change again 40 years from now due to obesity rates?
200-290 is reclassified as Supercruiser, while 300+ becomes the NEW Heavyweight! Wlads HW record would then be 0-0. Its idiotic to put all your faith in the current "200+" definition of heavyweight.

Mavrovic is an Easter-European. No wonder Lennox had problems.

What the hell is that supposed to mean? Mavrovic was an undefeated croatian who no one wanted to fight. Lennox has wiped out more nations and ethnicities than any HW that ever lived. American, British, African, Ukrainian, New Zealand. He is the Best ever,

No, the reason is that Wlad (like any orthodox fighter) has problems with SOUTHPAWS

I love how you totally dodged Vaughn Bean and Eddie Chambers who were Orthodox fighters. THe common theme here is small guys.... Vitali has never floored a man under 220 lbs.

Singling out fights is BAD. Otherwise you could draw conclusions from Lennox vs Levi Billups (UD10) and Vitali Klitschko vs Billups (KO2).

Billups was KO'd 4 different times between the meeting with Lewis and the meeting with Vitali. Also Vitali commanded an 11 year youth advantage over him. Klitschkos always lose when comparing common opponents because they face the older/punchdrunk version of Lennox's leftovers. Lennox achieved the Best result in 3 of the 6 common opponents and fought the superior version 6 out of 6 times.

Dont think Wlad wasnt pressured in 2008 when

-he had the same trainer as Lennox
-3 separate fight films of rahman getting brutally kod
-Lennox himself sitting 10 feet away in a broadcast booth

The only intrigue about Rahman/Wlad was to see if Wlad could finish Rahman faster than Lewis did. Watch those two fights back2back and you will see who the superior puncher is.

[hweightblogger]

What if the rules change again 40 years from now due to obesity rates?
200-290 is reclassified as Supercruiser, while 300+ becomes the NEW Heavyweight! Wlads HW record would then be 0-0.

Of COURSE.

Because it's idiotic to compare Wlad to 300+ guys when he never faced 300+ guys.

But I don't think the bodies WILL EVER make the same mistake again to make a completely different division with the SAME NAME like a lower division.

What the hell is that supposed to mean? Mavrovic was an undefeated croatian who no one wanted to fight. Lennox has wiped out more nations and ethnicities than any HW that ever lived. American, British, African, Ukrainian, New Zealand. He is the Best ever,

Lennox called the Mavrovic fight the hardest fight of his life.

There you saw already the switch from American boxers to Easter-European. And I just counted the birthplaces of the opponents.

Lennox has fought against 13 different birthcountries
Wlad against 17.

Now, some of the birthplaces are unknown, but I have no clue where you get your info from.

Wlad also leads in the fightcountries statistic.

I love how you totally dodged Vaughn Bean and Eddie Chambers who were Orthodox fighters. THe common theme here is small guys....

Didn't dodge anything. I included them into my southpaw-orthodox comparison.

Billups was KO'd 4 different times between the meeting with Lewis and the meeting with Vitali.

And he was KOed 4 times prior to Lewis (KO1, KO5, KO8, KO3). Yet Lewis (DEC10) didn't manage to do what Vitali did (KO2).

Also Vitali commanded an 11 year youth advantage over him.

And Michael Moorer had a greater age "advantage" than Lennox and Lionel Washington smaller. And yet they all managed to KO Billups while Lennox didn't.

Klitschkos always lose when comparing common opponents because they face the older/punchdrunk version of Lennox's leftovers.

Yup, Lennox fought the less experienced + pre-prime versions I could claim equally. Experience is especially important at heavyweight.

The only intrigue about Rahman/Wlad was to see if Wlad could finish Rahman faster than Lewis did.

And Wlad _did_ perform better. Lennox was KOed by Rahman. NEVER forget that. But you are again comparing single fights. You know exactly that fights can have utterly different results even against the same 2 opponents, thus comparing single fights is a useless hobby.

[americanbot]

Nonsense. Ali himself was the Lard of the Rings at times. As was Frazier. Holmes, too. etc etc

Of course you can find some pictures where Ali looks good. But this is far from being typical.

The only exception are Ken Norton (who had not enough fat to resist power punchers) and George Foreman. The others are either sub-heavies (thus they have a cruiser physique) or are very comparable to nowadays.

ali was in shape. you don't have to have a six pack to have a low body fat percentage. hell hopkins doesn't have a six pack. holmes & fraizer were also in shape. only when holmes got old he got fat which he should. the modern heavyweight division is fat slop & shouldn't be compared to the fighters of old.

modern titty ball slop.

[americanbot]

this is how ali looked for most of his career

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Ki2IPI9h77Y/TSHF6mo3SPI/AAAAAAAAB1c/DEC3tTlcxyM/s1600/cassius-clay.jpg

IN SHAPE