Should opponents below 215 lbs count on a heavyweight's record?

[hweightblogger]

Because 215 is a magical number I created in my head to exclude Joe Louis from any and all heavyweight discussions.

Because in other sports (e.g. kickboxing) 215 is already the limit.

Even some boxing organizations (IBA) have 210+ as their limit.

It's actually irrelevant what heavyweight is, as long as they rename the current division. The AVERAGE fighter nowadays is 224 lbs.

50% of Klitschko's opponents are 230+.

It's only the TERM "heavyweight" that confuses people into comparing blown-up light heavyweights (like Marciano) who had NOT A SINGLE real heavyweight fight (200x2) on his record to nowadays heavies.

It's obvious that they should make a superheavyweight division LIKE THEY CORRECTLY DID AT OLYMPICS to distinguish it from what was called "heavyweight" during Ali's times.

This way nonsense comparisons (Marciano vs Lennox) would stop instantly.

But let me add that the poll makes a mistake because heavyweight does not mean UNLIMITED in both directions. There _IS_ (and nearly always was) a LOWER limit. Just the UPPER limit was unlimited.

name..............|record|record200x2|record215x2| median win opponent
Wladimir Klitschko|51-3..|51-3.......|44-3.......|233 lbs............
Lennox Lewis......|41-2..|39-2.......|34-2.......|228 lbs............
David Haye........|25-1..|9-0 .......|4-0 .......|198 lbs............
Muhammad Ali......|48-5..|23-4.......|9-1 .......|205 lbs............
Rid**** Bowe......|39-1..|38-1.......|29-1.......|227 lbs............
Rocky Marciano....|44-0..|0-0 .......|0-0 .......|190 lbs............
Joe Louis.........|56-3..|9-0 .......|0-0 .......|193 lbs............
Joe Frazier.......|29-2..|11-2.......|1-2 .......|199 lbs............

It's clearly visible that guys like Joe Louis don't belong on the same toplists like Lennox Lewis, Rid**** Bowe or Valuev. They may be better boxers than Valuev BUT NOT IN TERMS OF REAL HEAVYWEIGHT.

[Joeyzagz]

Let me guess. Excluding Louis, Marciano, Frazier, Dempsey and Holyfield from any and all top 10 ATG HW discussions, so Lennox can be secured a spot?

Exactly.

The ATG list would look like this:

1. Lennox
2. Foreman
3. Vitali
4. Bowe
..........
74. Wladimir

[The_Demon]

Yes,some of the greatest heavyweights ever were below 215,in fact,the majority of them were

[Suckmedry]

This debate is boring and pointless.

[shade darkar]

in todays world anyone who weighs 200lbs plus with the right training is more than capable of beating the fcuk out of people that weigh 250lbs+ in my opinion, it just gives the bigger boys the advantage of not having to cut weight. by the same token tho, the bigger boys usually pay for that in stamina.

it probably wouldnt matter what the limit is tho, the smaller guys with big balls will always move up a division. the fat bastards will always stay in their division.

[shade darkar]

Exactly.

The ATG list would look like this:

1. Lennox
2. Foreman
3. Vitali
4. Bowe
..........
74. Wladimir

lol, 74 is a bit high for wlad!

[Joeyzagz]

Because in other sports (e.g. kickboxing) 215 is already the limit.

Even some boxing organizations (IBA) have 210+ as their limit.

It's actually irrelevant what heavyweight is, as long as they rename the current division. The AVERAGE fighter nowadays is 224 lbs.

50% of Klitschko's opponents are 230+.

It's only the TERM "heavyweight" that confuses people into comparing blown-up light heavyweights (like Marciano) who had NOT A SINGLE real heavyweight fight (200x2) on his record to nowadays heavies.

It's obvious that they should make a superheavyweight division LIKE THEY CORRECTLY DID AT OLYMPICS to distinguish it from what was called "heavyweight" during Ali's times.

This way nonsense comparisons (Marciano vs Lennox) would stop instantly.

But let me add that the poll makes a mistake because heavyweight does not mean UNLIMITED in both directions. There _IS_ (and nearly always was) a LOWER limit. Just the UPPER limit was unlimited.

It's clearly visible that guys like Joe Louis don't belong on the same toplists like Lennox Lewis, Rid**** Bowe or Valuev. They may be better boxers than Valuev BUT NOT IN TERMS OF REAL HEAVYWEIGHT.

That 200x2 is bull****. It convieniently erases every match Fitzsimmons ever had including the ones where he KOd 230lb+ men. It shouldnt matter what Bob weighed, if he is man enough to face heavyweights he should get heavyweight credit.

Joe Louis crushed every 220+ guy he faced, it was the smaller men who gave him problems, and those are the fights you are excluding!

Joe Louis had more trouble with 176 lb Billy Conn than 260 lb Primo Carnera

Jack Dempsey had more trouble with 189lb Gene Tunney than 245lb Jess Willard

Lennox Lewis had more trouble with 214lb Mavrovic than 250lb Michael Grant

Muhammad ALi had more trouble with 185 lb Henry Cooper than 220lb George Foreman.

The Klitschkos had a harder time with 208 Eddie Chambers, 213 lb Chris Byrd, 217lb Vaughn Bean than 287lb WOlfgramm, 260lb Kirk Johnson, 259 Fabio Moli.

Is this a coincidence? Two of the 4 guys who went 12 with Wlad were below 215?

[hweightblogger]

That 200x2 is bull****. It convieniently erases every match Fitzsimmons ever had including the ones where he KOd 230lb+ men. It shouldnt matter what Bob weighed, if he is man enough to face heavyweights he should get heavyweight credit.

This is wrong. There is a LOWER LIMIT in every division thus it's against the rules if somebody weighs less than the lower limit.

If 1 fighter weighs below 200 then it's not a heavyweight fight anymore. Where do you want to draw a line? Below 180 lbs it's not a heavyweight anymore? Below 170? Sorry, I go by the official rules: Both fighters 200+.

Joe Louis crushed every 220+ guy he faced, it was the smaller men who gave him problems, and those are the fights you are excluding!

And yet heavyweight nowadays is defined as 200+ although smaller men MAY give Klitschko a problem.

Joe Louis had more trouble with 176 lb Billy Conn than 260 lb Primo Carnera

Then Louis had more problems with cruiser Conn. So?

It's completely irrelevant what weight class is better or worse, or at which weight opponents cause problems. It could be that Wlad Klitschko would lose every fight against 175+ opponents. So what?

It's forbidden nowadays for Klitschko to call out sub-200 opponents thus fights against sub-200 opponents should not be used when COMPARING records.

Lennox Lewis had more trouble with 214lb Mavrovic than 250lb Michael Grant

Mavrovic is an Easter-European. No wonder Lennox had problems.

Muhammad ALi had more trouble with 185 lb Henry Cooper than 220lb George Foreman.

This fight is utterly inconclusive as would any fight be during the rain season in the freaking RAIN FOREST.

The Klitschkos had a harder time with 208 Eddie Chambers, 213 lb Chris Byrd, 217lb Vaughn Bean than 287lb WOlfgramm, 260lb Kirk Johnson, 259 Fabio Moli.

All these guys are 200+. I don't understand how they are relevant to this thread.

Is this a coincidence? Two of the 4 guys who went 12 with Wlad were below 215?

No, the reason is that Wlad (like any orthodox fighter) has problems with SOUTHPAWS (that's why Lennox and Mike Tyson never fought southpaws).

Wlad vs Southpaws: KO every 9.8 rounds
Wlad vs Orthodox.: KO every 4.1 rounds

It's not the weight but the stance.

But let me add something else: You CHERRY-PICK FIGHTS to make a point. You have to analyze the WHOLE record. Singling out fights is BAD. Otherwise you could draw conclusions from Lennox vs Levi Billups (UD10) and Vitali Klitschko vs Billups (KO2).

Moreover Wlad and Vitali are bad examples for anything because they are the toppest KOers of all time thus nearly all their opponents will be KOed.
To analyze how much the performance suffers when opponents get heavier and heavier you have to analyze the WHOLE RECORDS of featherfisted champs like Joe Frazier or Muhammad Ali but I am too lazy to copy and paste it from my homepage

http://www.heavyweightblog.com/1094/joe-frazier-vs-klitschko

There you have sortable statistical tables etc...

[Jim Jeffries]

Exactly.

The ATG list would look like this:

1. Lennox
2. Foreman
3. Vitali
4. Bowe
..........
74. Wladimir

Not possible to have Lennox above Foreman. No way, no how.

[Steak]

Because in other sports (e.g. kickboxing) 215 is already the limit.

Even some boxing organizations (IBA) have 210+ as their limit.

It's actually irrelevant what heavyweight is, as long as they rename the current division. The AVERAGE fighter nowadays is 224 lbs.

50% of Klitschko's opponents are 230+.

It's only the TERM "heavyweight" that confuses people into comparing blown-up light heavyweights (like Marciano) who had NOT A SINGLE real heavyweight fight (200x2) on his record to nowadays heavies.

It's obvious that they should make a superheavyweight division LIKE THEY CORRECTLY DID AT OLYMPICS to distinguish it from what was called "heavyweight" during Ali's times.

This way nonsense comparisons (Marciano vs Lennox) would stop instantly.

But let me add that the poll makes a mistake because heavyweight does not mean UNLIMITED in both directions. There _IS_ (and nearly always was) a LOWER limit. Just the UPPER limit was unlimited.

name..............|record|record200x2|record215x2| median win opponent
Wladimir Klitschko|51-3..|51-3.......|44-3.......|233 lbs............
Lennox Lewis......|41-2..|39-2.......|34-2.......|228 lbs............
David Haye........|25-1..|9-0 .......|4-0 .......|198 lbs............
Muhammad Ali......|48-5..|23-4.......|9-1 .......|205 lbs............
Rid**** Bowe......|39-1..|38-1.......|29-1.......|227 lbs............
Rocky Marciano....|44-0..|0-0 .......|0-0 .......|190 lbs............
Joe Louis.........|56-3..|9-0 .......|0-0 .......|193 lbs............
Joe Frazier.......|29-2..|11-2.......|1-2 .......|199 lbs............

It's clearly visible that guys like Joe Louis don't belong on the same toplists like Lennox Lewis, Rid**** Bowe or Valuev. They may be better boxers than Valuev BUT NOT IN TERMS OF REAL HEAVYWEIGHT.

...Valuev deserved a loss against a former Cruiserweight 45 year old man who had previously been suspended from boxing.


and what about a 175lb fighter being #4 at HW currently? and top guys like Chambers and Povetkin would EASILY be 200lbs or less if they lost all that extra fat.